.45 vs .357 buffalo boar for bear defense

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Individuals who use firearms are more likely to be injured by a Grizz? That sounds like the Brady Campaign. They claim people who keep guns in their homes are more likely to be shot?
I am not an expert on Grizz attacks. Having lived near the Grizz for most of my years I don't agree with the spray is better than a firearm. The Park authorities push the bear spray. But the Park authorities carry shotguns loaded with "Buck and Ball". It will be a cold day in Hell when you see a Ranger take out a bad bear with a can of spray.:D
 
Statistics tell us we are more likely to be struck and killed by lightning than attacked and killed by Black Bear.

Well that is if you include everyone who walks outside where lightning can get ya. Now a Black Bear, being rather non-aggressive, is pretty rare. And if you don't live were bears are, I'd say it's almost non-existent!

On the other hand, those living in Alaska and Wyoming, I'd think get attacked by more Griz and Brown bears than lightning. Be curious to see the stats on that.

Deaf
 
Well I think it might be a toss up if your in Northern Rockies big bear country.
Sit in one place on those mountains at the right time of year and either might get you.
 
Well the Hard truth is that it would be impossible to get reliable statistics. The number of Bears shot and never reported is very high. The Fed is infamous for putting human survivors through legal hell. The code of the West is "SSS" Shoot Shovel Shut up.:thumbup:
 
Another reason for the claimed success of sprays. Bear gets close, hose it down and it saved my life.
With a gun, bear gets close you either yell, throw rocks and hope it goes away or you go with the triple s. Either way there is no reported advantage over sprays.
In short the benefit of spray is being able to use it indiscriminately compared to a gun which from the bears point of view probably saves a number of them.
 
Another reason for the claimed success of sprays. Bear gets close, hose it down and it saved my life.
With a gun, bear gets close you either yell, throw rocks and hope it goes away or you go with the triple s. Either way there is no reported advantage over sprays.
In short the benefit of spray is being able to use it indiscriminately compared to a gun which from the bears point of view probably saves a number of them.

Actually that is what I suspect with the bear stats the 'experts' show.

The bears that are just nuisances, like walking into the camp, or tearing into food sources or houses, are sprayed and claimed as a success. But guns are ONLY used if the bear is charging.

Hence when John Orr got ripped into by 'Mama Bear' (twice), he found that spray didn't do so hot.

Bears that are just nuisances no doubt are much easier to run off with spray as they are not full of adrenaline nor enraged. And of course, those who can't, or won't shoot a gun, bear spray is their best, if not only, real option.

So, I'm in favor of bear spray to get rid of nuisance bears while keeping a gun aimed at 'em. But when the chips are down I'd prefer something with a bang as the preventive medicine.

Deaf
 
I also can pretty much guarantee that you will never get a recommendation from the park service or USFW that shooting their bears is an effective means of defence even if studies showed it to be 100% effective.
They are just not going to publicly advocate the use of a gun in the wilderness anymore than downtown Chicago.
 
I also can pretty much guarantee that you will never get a recommendation from the park service or USFW that shooting their bears is an effective means of defence even if studies showed it to be 100% effective.
They are just not going to publicly advocate the use of a gun in the wilderness anymore than downtown Chicago.

And that is why they lauded over Dr. Smith's two studies, "Efficacy of Bear Deterrent Spray in Alaska", and
"Human Dimensions Efficacy of Firearms for Bear Deterrence in Alaska" even though I showed such huge flaws in the studies.

They will just keep saying, "we are experts... and shut up."

Deaf
 
It is unfortunate that there can't be a bear thread without the "usual suspects" popping in to trash bear spray. This thread has nothing to do with bear spray and the OP's question is very specific. Yet the same folks jump on the opportunity to deny the science/data on bear spray whenever possible, just because it doesn't gel with their way of thinking.

It will be a cold day in Hell when you see a Ranger take out a bad bear with a can of spray.:D

Happens all the time. You just refuse to believe it.

Hence when John Orr got ripped into by 'Mama Bear' (twice), he found that spray didn't do so hot.

His name is Todd Orr and he also had a firearm on him that was less than useless during the attack.

In short the benefit of spray is being able to use it indiscriminately compared to a gun which from the bears point of view probably saves a number of them

Nope. The benefit of the spray is that it is more gross-motor skill based and requires less accuracy than a firearm.

They will just keep saying, "we are experts... and shut up."

No. They studied the documented real-world attacks and then provided the data in the form of a study. For reasons unknown, you simply choose not to believe it.

If you guys have such a problem with it, why don't you start your own study and make a thread with your findings. Instead of disrupting every thread on the topic. Or is it easier just to belly-ache and deny the science and facts?
 
Statistics tell us we are more likely to be struck and killed by lightning than attacked and killed by Black Bear. One should probably wear a lightning rod on their head and make sure they are grounded at all times when outdoors. Those same statistics tell us we are more likely to be killed in a car accident on the way to Yosemite than by a Black Bear while there. Maybe folks should stay home and not drive. I am not chastising anyone for being prepared, just saying that this whole "what gun for black bear?" is not what most folks make it out to be. I've lived in Black Bear country all my life and have never thought twice about not going into the woods without some form of firearm. I've found being aware of your surroundings and avoiding scenarios that will get you in trouble work just as well as any gun against Black Bears. Proper food storage while camping and proper elimination of food wastes. Making noise as you walk to avoid surprising a bear or getting between a sow and her cubs. Odds are you will be at more of a risk from two legged predators than from Black Bear......so take what you need for them. Take some bear Spray too and know how to use it.

Bear spray or for that matter any other sort of self defense spray is illegal in Yosemite.
 
Yeah so double check this as I've been out of that state for long enough to lose track of the most recent insanity, but:

In California you can have a loaded gun in your residence. That has long been accepted to include tents or even RVs (motor vehicles, which would otherwise be off limits) while camping. Outside the tent, though, you are "in public" and your carry options are far more limited. Basically you cannot carry a loaded gun, and even unloaded guns can only be carried in specific circumstances. E.g. if you have a hunting or fishing licence and are engaged in those activities, and in a place that doesn't ban them. State parks are off limits, and I don't know about state run national parks.

You should be fine having it unloaded and locked in the trunk of your car, and fine bringing it into your tent at night, but beyond that? A lot of potential for legal trouble, and not a lot of offsetting benefit.

If you did shoot a bear (the animal on the state flag) you would have a lot of people looking for a way to skin you. Most Californians would be more upset about you shooting a bear than a person.

That said...the semi auto would be my choice for logistical reasons (ease of loading from empty in a rush).

Go to the Yosemite website. They spell it out. Basically if you are legal to carry concealed you can do so in all but a few "posted" locations. They go on to say it is illegal to discharge a firearm in the park. But, if one's life is on the line a violation of that rule would take a backseat to surviving.

Interestingly, you can't have a whole raft of other "weapons" in the park, but firearms, as long as you follow the rules are ok.
 
Now that I've put to bed questions of "can I have a gun". I'll post my personal preferences after a short comment on bears.

That short comment is this, black bears attack and either seriously injure of kill humans. There are several incidents that happened in California.

My preference, and by the way what I carried a very short while ago in Yosemite, is a .45 colt Ruger Blackhawk. Specifically a 4 5/8" barreled stainless model. The ammunition is a handload consisting of 250 gr (nominal) hard cast bullet.

I can assure you that the park folks knew I was carrying, but had no comment. As long as it was concealed people either didn't know (probably didn't suspect even) unless they were gun types or LEO's of one sort or another.
 
I love how at the mention of bears people immediately start talking about how unlikely an attack is and how bear spray is preferred. It's totally irrelevant to the question asked by the OP, and personally I don't carry based on likelihood of attack? I carry a gun because there is a possibility, however small, that I will need one. I don't need any stats to tell me it's better to have a gun and never need it than to rely on mathematics to protect myself and my family.

No where did I state anything about not taking a gun....actually I said just the opposite.

Odds are you will be at more of a risk from two legged predators than from Black Bear......so take what you need for them.

My statement was that folks tend to inflate the minuscule risk factor of a Black Bear attack to a level where they think they need a special gun and special ammo. Ammo and gun makers love it. This somehow justifies to many, payin' a buck and a half a pop for boutique .357 ammo.

Yosemite Park, of which the OP is asking about, has been around for over 150 years. In just the last 20 years, approximately 75 million people have recreated there. Since it's inception, there have been no fatal attacks from Black Bears, or even a serious injury from a Black Bear attack. Not one. Ever. So what does this realistically tell us about the possibility of someone needing a special gun and ammo while visiting there? Yes, I know there is a first time and I know one should be prepared. Still, with the risk from a Black Bear attack being so close to zero, why is it the first thing folks worry about when going there? Truth be told, one is at more risk of being injured by a bear by hitting it with their car while at Yosemite. Thus if one is being realistic, they'd be more prepared to prevent an injury from a black bear there by installing a re-enforced bumper on their vehicle, as opposed to taking a gun. All the guns in the world won't avoid an attack, at the most, they might deter it. Knowledge of Black Bear habits, how to not attract them to your food sources and what to do first if one encounters one, is what will avoid an attack and will have a larger impact on keeping most folks alive than the gun they carry. If one is backpacking or traveling into the backcountry of Yosemite, food canisters are required. This is the knowledge folks need to give to the OP, not what their personal preference in handguns is. I think this was addressed at the beginning of this thread by Drail

You clearly have a great deal to learn about bears if you have to ask this question.

Talking about Grizzlies or Alaska has nuttin' to do with folks takin' a family trip to Yosemite Park in California. There are no Grizzlies there anymore. Park officials deal with millions of visitors and the 3-500 Black Bears that reside there, and what is it they advise? Buying high recoiling ammo that will have a POI that will differ greatly from what one's standard ammo does is not much help unless one is going to practice and get very proficient with it. How many of those folks that buy special "bear defense" ammo practice with it on kill zone sized targets while that target is moving towards them @ 30 MPH? Otherwise you are just hoping the noise will drive the bear away. As far as the noise level of specific ammo and the risk of permanent ear damage from it's use in a real Bear Defense scenario.....do you really care about minor hearing damage as long as you live thru the episode and your ears are not permanently removed from your head?
 
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Go to the Yosemite website. They spell it out. Basically if you are legal to carry concealed you can do so in all but a few "posted" locations.

Yeah, and I was talking about when you would be legally able to carry concealed. Which, if you are not a California resident, is likely just "inside your tent".

Now that I've put to bed questions of "can I have a gun". I'll post my personal preferences after a short comment on bears.

I don't see where you put that to bed. You are a California resident with a valid CCW?
 
I attribute all this bear paranoia to the reality shows on TV, The ABP being the worst. There is hardly an episode that doesn't have a bruin invading Brown Town.
I'm surprised there hasn't been a bear episode on Fast and Loud, American Pickers or the pawn shop show.
 
His name is Todd Orr and he also had a firearm on him that was less than useless during the attack.

Anything stuffed on the backpack will be useless, including bear spray. One wonders how many bear attacks there are where the victim had bear spray on/in the pack but could not access it... kind of an equipment failure the 'studies' you gave failed to count, at least for bear spray...

No. They studied the documented real-world attacks and then provided the data in the form of a study. For reasons unknown, you simply choose not to believe it.

I can again re-post my findings on why the two studies were so flawed. OC, you never have shown WHY they are not flawed. I can only assume you have no answer (logical one, not one ranting on why the 'experts' should be believed.)

Can you explain WHY one study shows 'gun failures' but the bear spray has none? Like 'tripping and falling or not having the gun or not using it'?

Can you explain WHY the use of 'anecdotal' evidence (hearsay?) That is NOT scientific!!!

Like I said,I can post lots more on those two studies.

Deaf
 
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Anything stuffed on the backpack will be useless, including bear spray. One wonders how many bear attacks there are where the victim had bear spray on/in the pack but could not access it... kind of an equipment failure the 'studies' you gave failed to count, at least for bear spray...



I can again re-post my findings on why the two studies were so flawed. OC, you never have shown WHY they are not flawed. I can only assume you have no answer (logical one, not one ranting on why the 'experts' should be believed.)

Can you explain WHY one study shows 'gun failures' but the bear spray has none? Like 'tripping and falling or not having the gun or not using it'?

Can you explain WHY the use of 'anecdotal' evidence (hearsay?) That is NOT scientific!!!

Like I said,I can post lots more on those two studies.

Deaf

Again, instead of disrupting this thread with your pseudoscience and "proof," start a new thread in the "Non-firearm Weapons" section and I will dismantle whatever you have there. Okay?
 
Bear spray or for that matter any other sort of self defense spray is illegal in Yosemite.
I see that now, thanks for the update. This is more of the kind of info the OP needs. From the Yosemite website...


Rangers from Yosemite say there just isn’t a need for the spray. The park doesn’t have grizzlies (the main reason someone would carry bear spray in the first place). Even though about 500 black bears do roam the park, Yosemite has never reported a bear-on-human attack. To prevent public encounters with bears, park staff use GPS tracking and redirection techniques with good success.
 
Individuals who use firearms are more likely to be injured by a Grizz? That sounds like the Brady Campaign. They claim people who keep guns in their homes are more likely to be shot?
I am not an expert on Grizz attacks. Having lived near the Grizz for most of my years I don't agree with the spray is better than a firearm. The Park authorities push the bear spray. But the Park authorities carry shotguns loaded with "Buck and Ball". It will be a cold day in Hell when you see a Ranger take out a bad bear with a can of spray.:D

I somewhat agree with you. I cited that US Fish and Wildlife (Not National Park) Service study, but I also noted that the study was somewhat skewed.
 
I attribute all this bear paranoia to the reality shows on TV, The ABP being the worst. There is hardly an episode that doesn't have a bruin invading Brown Town.
I'm surprised there hasn't been a bear episode on Fast and Loud, American Pickers or the pawn shop show.

Here here! Most Alaskans hate those programs.
 
One thought has occurred to me after reading the various posts about the legality of even carrying a firearm in Yosemite N.P. due to CA state anti gun laws. Why not visit Yellowstone on up the road, in Wyoming and Montana, where, most assuredly, the laws are more friendly to you?

By the way, I've hiked in both Yosemite and Yellowstone, they are equally beautiful places to visit.

People on the left quickly boycott any company or state that asserts conservative values or pass conservative laws. Why not deprive California of the revenue from the dollars you would spend, and instead pass those profits along to states that recognize the value of freedom?

Just a thought.
 
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