Does Universal Background Checks = Tracking?

Does Universal Background Checks = Tracking?

  • yes

    Votes: 62 81.6%
  • no

    Votes: 14 18.4%

  • Total voters
    76
Status
Not open for further replies.
You can tell a lot by a person's appearance and demeanor. If someone looks and acts like a scuzzball, that should cause red flags to go up, and you shouldn't sell him the weapon. Subjective, I know, but "you know them when you see them."

You would be greatly surprised to discover that most prison inmates do not look like a "scuzzball." Tattoos are so common that it creates problems when hiring LEO's due to some of the visible tats on their arms.

I suspect you will not feel comfortable selling a gun to me and to many people I know.

At the gun shows I go to, maybe 25% of the attendees fit that description, and they seem to have no problem buying guns from private sellers. Now, if the scuzzball really is OK (for example if he's an undercover cop), he would have no problem buying from a licensed dealer after a NICS check. (On the other hand, perfectly clean-cut individuals could be criminals.)

So only honest cops support UBC. LEO's that do not believe in UBC's are dishonest correct?

Nice to know that you think I and several of my friends are corrupt LEO's.

Absent a system to objectively check a buyer's bona fides, it's wise for private sellers to err on the side of caution. A non-registration UBC system would make life easier for conscientious private sellers. What we want to avoid is the system you have there in Washington State. Leave the FFL's out of private sales.

UBC / background checks do not show what a persons real reason is for buying a gun. The simple solution is to have a dealer sell the gun on consignment rather than flushing the rights of millions of Americans down the toilet.
 
Last edited:
The gun community should have done more to weed out the bad apples ourselves. The profit motive (greed) has led some of us to sell guns to people who obviously shouldn't have guns. When self-regulation fails, the government steps in.

And what is, "obviously shouldn't have guns"? Like who? I have sold guns in the past to people that you may look down upon. Even donated to! But I knew them well, like and trust them. Government mediation was not needed or wanted.

Selling guns "off the books" can be justified in the sellers' minds by high-minded libertarian ideals. In reality, though, it's simple greed.
Well, we are capitalists. We are still a free thinking nation, for the most part too. Part of the problem with our society today is that we look to government to solve everything big and small....gladly giving up our responsibilities and (perhaps unwittingly) our rights, for the sake of ease and sticking it to whomever is goring our ox. Forgive me for standing by the idea that my life, my possessions, and who I choose to do business with are still mine to control.

If we are honest with ourselves, we will admit that a lot of this, in fact, goes on. I've been around the gun world a long time, and I've seen it.

Maybe you just hang around with shadier people.

If you are honest with yourself; no matter what "common sense" controls are enacted, like UBCs, criminals will continue to misuse firearms. So, the problem will never really stop, and the regs will keep on coming.
BOHICA is not supposed to be a motto to live by.

That, my friend, is not the American way.

Wouldn't it make more sense to advocate for more good people to be armed, instead of constantly going along with the premise that guns are the problem?

return fire is the only thing that stops gun wielding Asshats in their tracks.
 
I think that it is obvious that UBC can lead to tracking individuals depending on how it is structured. Gun controllers and to some extent law enforcement want this information and obviously those who own guns mostly oppose giving them this information. Thus, we have been at an impasse on the issue. Given today's technology, automated systems could allow individuals to determine whether someone is eligible to buy a firearm without recording the specifics of the transaction. Think of something like Paypal where the buyer and seller both get confirmation of the transfer of money (in a loose sense) without the specifics of a particular credit card etc. But the system would have to employ some way of forgetting the record after the inquiry. However, the pro-gun forces in Congress lack the power to force the issue and those seeking more government information on who owns guns are unlikely to compromise their demands for everyone's identity. Moderates in the issue go back and forth depending on the news of the day.

In the absence of any great societal consensus, government policy is being set at the margins with almost random efforts to show "something" is being done. If you think of it as ritualistic, it would be correct--e.g. Connecticut and New York laws have very large non-compliance ratios. If a new event happens, then further "restrictions" will be passed with little effort to ensure compliance. Forcing compliance will cause a major backlash in politics and so is avoided for now. The political ritual in these states apparently demand "something" must be done and the governments in those states comply. Every nation-state or empire goes through similar problems, some eras stress centralization while others decentralization. When fundamental agreement of what a state's government should and should not do become splintered among the population, this type of disorder (think legal anarchy) spreads. We see this on immigration, abortion, the role of religion in society, use of drugs, immigration, the role of the military, law enforcement, government spending and taxes, etc. and should not be surprised when it involves the topic of firearms as well. Washington is deadlocked on a lot of issues right now because voters and elites are split in attitudes. Thus, the conflict spreads to the states with more homogeneous state governments taking positions almost diametrically opposed and those in the middle fluctuating.

Repeatedly, we have seen that government can abuse information gathering systems such as using them illegally to track love interests, political enemies, etc. Some things like the printed 4473 obviously hinder this process by making it time consuming and more difficult. This serves as an incentive to only do so when needed for LEO. Make it easy, they will follow the path of least resistance such as the automated license plate readers and using traffic cams to track individuals of interest to law enforcement. Currently, the Supreme Court has a very important case regarding the 4th Amendment as technology has made the old reasonable expectation of privacy in Katz threadbare in terms of requiring warrants just as technology made the older Olmstead trespass standard less useful. See http://thefederalist.com/2017/11/28/supreme-court-hear-important-fourth-amendment-case-generation/

One suggestion is that the Supreme Court adopt a mosaic approach that police must acquire a warrant if their information gathering reaches a certain level. Automated information systems in government and by private companies allow law enforcement to determine whether or not people are present in a home (computerized electrical and gas meters), analyze a complete network of communications of a person of interest, rapidly determine things like finances, travel, web searches, email headers, etc. by simply using their subpoena powers rather than seeking a warrant. Even bio-metrics that identity of people can be ascertained by accessing third party online photos and postings without your permission or knowledge. The justification is that we can more easily catch criminals that way by automating police work. Obviously, the counterpoint is that privacy is vanishing when every purchase, activity, and other records can be searched with a few mouse clicks. The joker in the deck is that essentially the law has become unknowable in many circumstances due to overly broad interpretations of statutes, triggering type statutes that rely on administrative regulations and agency decisions, and the overall mass of federal and state laws.
 
At the gun shows I go to, maybe 25% of the attendees fit that description,


That's a remarkably high percentage that you're assuming can't meet the requirements to legally buy a firearm.

I sell knives at shows. The percentage of people here in eastern TN that I would consider "scuzzballs" is much much smaller. They are obvious though and they get ignored or challenged to show DLs for phone camera capture with the gun or carry permits if they want to buy. This invariably runs them off.
 
boom boom,

The core issue is do citizens need the permisson of the King to be allowed to own a gun. The right to purchase a gun through a FFL no longer exists as it requires the approval of the Government henchmen (FBI) in order to do so. In addition the right to purchase a firearm either through a licensed dealer or private party no longer exists in some States.

The so-call "safeguards" to appeal the decision of the Kings men is the burden of citizen who must at his/her time and expense convince the King that he/she is worthy of exercising their "right."

The Supreme Court has ruled the firearms are subject to regulation. It is merely a matter of enough of the Kings men appointed in positions of power to strip the remaining rights away. We are within a few short years of our remaining so-called "right to bear and keep arms" as we know today from being permanently taken.
 
Selling a gun? Check the system, pull a report, and if the person clears, go ahead with the sale. Put a paper copy of the report in your filing cabinet. Do away with Form 4473 and all that goes with it, but require everyone to do a check.
This is a sensible, rational, idea.

That's not the goal of the antis. Any change to GCA will be trumpeted through an eagerly compliant media as "gutting essential gun safety laws!!11!!" So, that would not happen. We'd have dated and time-stamped and location and person-specific checks executed, and the long paper train, too.

Which would do nothing to "fix" NICS, either (14 states have never reported mental health disabilities; the definition of "criminal at large" was changed to effectively remove 15,000 prohibited persons; we already know too many agencies gundeck their records reporting as is).
 
Pro-gun improvements in exchange for the Hughes Amendment.
No. It did not work that way. FOPA was meant to be pro-gun all the way. Was watered down in reconciliation. Hughes was enacted--many say illegally after the deadline for amendments--at quite literally the last second. It was not a compromise, it was a sneak attack. The votes to approve had already been lined up pre-Hughes. So, they were stuck. Table the bill and lose the whole thing, or keep all the carefully negotiated deals in place (about 542 of them) to pass the thing as is even with Hughes in there.

NFA started out in 1933 as a complete and utter ban on all handguns. In negotiations, all things that could be shortened was included. The reconciliation removed the handgun ban, but strengthened the shorties definitions. Silencers were tossed in at the last minute as "punishment" for having had to give up the handgun ban (even though everyone agreed that ban would not pass constitutional muster).
 
Appearances can be deceiving. When I was in Seminary (let that sink in for a moment) I normally wore bib overalls due to the job that I needed to pay for that schooling, and wore a beard that would make ZZTop envious. At that time I was a medically retired veteran, husband, and father of two children in my late 20's early 30's with a Bachelor's Degree working on a Masters. I looked a little "scuzzy" from time to time, but was the same guy that I am now at 62, clean cut with a CCW and a ton of grandkids.
 
Does Universal Background Checks = Tracking?

I don't think it matters, at least not to me. If guns, or even certain guns are deemed illegal to own most of us will comply with the law. The only way we would oppose tracking or registration is if we planned to disobey the law and keep them anyway. I will do as much as possible to see that guns are kept legal, but truth is, I ain't gonna go to prison over it.

Every time there is a high profile shooting the left says ban guns. The right says guns aren't the problem and we should take steps to prevent unstable people from getting and using guns. I agree with the latter approach. But what I see are gun owners constantly opposing laws. What I'd like to see is gun owners and the NRA coming up with viable solutions and pushing for them.

I don't pretend to know all of the answers, but if we as gun owners don't come up with a solution someone else will. And their solution isn't going to be one we like. UBC's might be part of the answer.
 
I think that it is obvious that UBC can lead to tracking individuals depending on how it is structured. Gun controllers and to some extent law enforcement want this information and obviously those who own guns mostly oppose giving them this information. Thus, we have been at an impasse on the issue. Given today's technology, automated systems could allow individuals to determine whether someone is eligible to buy a firearm without recording the specifics of the transaction. Think of something like Paypal where the buyer and seller both get confirmation of the transfer of money (in a loose sense) without the specifics of a particular credit card etc. But the system would have to employ some way of forgetting the record after the inquiry. However, the pro-gun forces in Congress lack the power to force the issue and those seeking more government information on who owns guns are unlikely to compromise their demands for everyone's identity. Moderates in the issue go back and forth depending on the news of the day.
I trimmed your post for brevity but I agree with it 100%.
 
I don't think it matters, at least not to me. If guns, or even certain guns are deemed illegal to own most of us will comply with the law. The only way we would oppose tracking or registration is if we planned to disobey the law and keep them anyway. I will do as much as possible to see that guns are kept legal, but truth is, I ain't gonna go to prison over it.
Sigh.

Some hills are worth dying on, and I will "not go quietly into that night".
 
Does UBC = Tracking?

I have read the majority of the comments and the participant’s rationale for their answer to this question. I am someone dismayed at the number of forum members who answered yes but are willing to offer a solution that wrapped in the fabric of registration.

Truth, justice, and the American way have been reduced to a mere slogan of an immortal being. The concept that we are a nation of laws is rapidly vanishing. Courts are being stacked with ideologists who make laws from the bench. Protest groups and state officials are openly defying laws with impunity.

Count me in the group that says, “I don’t have to show you no stinking registration”. I will gladly pay the penalty for demanding my 2nd Amendment rights. There will never be enough prisons to hold us.
 
CIA - the State Department - have a registry via the NSA. You can take that to the bank too.
 
If we want to kill the fix NICS movement, all we have to do is push for agreement that the first group that needs to be added to the prohibited database is illegal aliens.

As boom-boom and I have both pointed out, background checks could be easily moved to the web. If there is a blockchain system behind it, nobody could access a block of data except the owner. It would be impossible for the government to keep a central record of transactions. If they wanted to find where a firearm was transferred, they could request information from the dealer, who would identify the first retail owner. They can then contact that owner, and ask who bought it from him, and so on. The record would exist, and be accessible, but only through the persons who own the data blocks.

Personally, I'd be happy with universal background checks so long as we had a system like that. There is no danger of mass firearm registration or tracking, because there is no central database, the data blocks are encrypted, and practically impenetrable.

Now some may argue that it would be hard to get everyone to comply. I suppose that is true. But it's likely to be more of bother to the government than to me.
 
Now some may argue that it would be hard to get everyone to comply. I suppose that is true. But it's likely to be more of bother to the government than to me.
As the old dogfood commercial said, "It makes its own gravy."

Sham " universal background checks" (AKA REGISTRATION) are INTENDED to fail. They're the stalking horse for registration and confiscation, and everyone knows it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top