Domestic killings shock Swiss (duplicate threads merged)

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LaEscopeta

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4755143.stm

Domestic killings shock Swiss
By Imogen Foulkes
BBC News, Geneva
Last Updated: Tuesday, 9 May 2006, 17:09 GMT 18:09 UK


Rey-Bellet was a star in Switzerland with a wide following
The murder last week of one of Switzerland's most famous skiers has forced the Swiss to look long and hard at a crime that is worryingly common in their society.

Corinne Rey-Bellet was shot by her husband Gerold Stadler just days after the couple had agreed to separate.

Stadler also shot and killed Rey-Bellet's brother Alain, and seriously wounded her mother, before finally killing himself.

The Swiss media tend to call cases like this "family dramas", in which a man kills his wife, often his own children, and himself.

Family slaughter might be a more accurate term - there have been 14 such cases in Switzerland in the last 11 months.

"There is a profile for a man who commits a crime like this," says Philip Jaffe, professor of psychology at Geneva University.

"He tends to be very ambitious, but isolated, very contained, and he can't cope with loss. So if his wife threatens to leave him, his response is violence."

Deceptively normal

Another characteristic is normality, or orderliness, as the Swiss often call it.


Gerold Stadler was found dead with a gun lying next to him

All the recent cases, including that of Rey-Bellet and Stadler, involved families who presented an outward appearance of normal, calm, orderly family life.

"Every time we get a case like this, you can go and ask the neighbours, and they all say the same thing," says Martin Boess, head of Switzerland's crime prevention unit.

"It was a normal family, he was going to work, the kids were going to school, they were quiet but friendly, no one suspected a thing," Mr Boess says.

Trying to make sense of senseless killings, he hazards a guess that perhaps the very normality - or the dreadful stress of keeping up the appearance of normality - can trigger the violence.

"Here in Switzerland we are brought up to expect everything to go according to plan," he explains.

"Just like our trains run on time, we've come to expect our lives to run to plan, and when they don't, we go wild."

Military menace

But this does not explain why Switzerland, so often thought of as a peaceful country, should have so many family killings.

It's very common to hear women tell how their husbands remind them they have a gun in moments of tension

Professor Brigitte Schnegg, Berne University

A recent study indicated that 58% of all murders in Switzerland were within the family. In the Netherlands, also a peaceful, prosperous Western European country, the figure is 29%.

Mr Boess blames the Swiss army's policy of requiring Swiss men, who all have to do military service, to keep their guns and ammunition at home in case of an emergency call-up.

What that means is that nearly all Swiss men have a sturmgewehr - a sub-machine gun - stored somewhere in their homes.

Those who make it to officer level have an automatic pistol too, and when men leave the army, they are allowed to keep their guns. No licence is required.

"If things go wrong, he can go upstairs, get the gun, and shoot," says Mr Boess.

In most of Switzerland's "family dramas", an army gun is used. Stadler shot his famous wife with his officer's pistol.

"It's very common to hear women tell how their husbands remind them they have a gun in moments of tension," says Brigitte Schnegg, professor of gender politics at Berne University.

"They'll say: 'If you don't do what I want, don't forget I've got my gun upstairs.'"

'Male honour'

For Ms Schnegg, the prevalence of guns together with the slow pace of equality in Switzerland, where women did not get the right to vote until 1971, have formed a lethal combination.

"We have a country in which, until recently, men were legally classed as the head of the household. They were the sole providers, the ones in charge and in control," she explains.

"I think these killings are the 'honour killings' of Switzerland," she says. "Family problems are seen as a defeat for the man, it all has to do with male honour."

Psychologist Philip Jaffe agrees with this interpretation, but believes it will take years for male attitudes to change.

In the meantime, he has a suggestion for reducing the violence, but it means challenging the much-loved tradition of keeping the guns at home.

"I think the guns should not be kept at home," he says.

"It's absolutely absurd when you think about it. For them to be available, in the cupboard or whatever, it creates the opportunity to use a lethal weapon in the heat of the moment, and that's very scary for many families. "

The Swiss gun lobby is strong, and until now all attempts at gun control have been defeated.

But when Corinne Rey-Bellet and her brother were buried side-by-side in their home town, on the day that should have been Alain's wedding day, even the most enthusiastic gun owners began to waver.

For the first time, opinion polls show a majority of Swiss want the guns out of their homes, and stored in a safer place.

The days when every Swiss man had a weapon, in the garage next to the kids' bikes or the lawnmower, may be numbered.
 
Domestic killings shock Swiss (militia firearms blamed)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4755143.stm

Domestic killings shock Swiss
By Imogen Foulkes
BBC News, Geneva

The murder last week of one of Switzerland's most famous skiers has forced the Swiss to look long and hard at a crime that is worryingly common in their society.
Corinne Rey-Bellet was shot by her husband Gerold Stadler just days after the couple had agreed to separate.

Stadler also shot and killed Rey-Bellet's brother Alain, and seriously wounded her mother, before finally killing himself.

The Swiss media tend to call cases like this "family dramas", in which a man kills his wife, often his own children, and himself.

Family slaughter might be a more accurate term - there have been 14 such cases in Switzerland in the last 11 months.

"There is a profile for a man who commits a crime like this," says Philip Jaffe, professor of psychology at Geneva University.

"He tends to be very ambitious, but isolated, very contained, and he can't cope with loss. So if his wife threatens to leave him, his response is violence."

Deceptively normal

Another characteristic is normality, or orderliness, as the Swiss often call it.


All the recent cases, including that of Rey-Bellet and Stadler, involved families who presented an outward appearance of normal, calm, orderly family life.

"Every time we get a case like this, you can go and ask the neighbours, and they all say the same thing," says Martin Boess, head of Switzerland's crime prevention unit.

"It was a normal family, he was going to work, the kids were going to school, they were quiet but friendly, no one suspected a thing," Mr Boess says.

Trying to make sense of senseless killings, he hazards a guess that perhaps the very normality - or the dreadful stress of keeping up the appearance of normality - can trigger the violence.

"Here in Switzerland we are brought up to expect everything to go according to plan," he explains.

"Just like our trains run on time, we've come to expect our lives to run to plan, and when they don't, we go wild."

Military menace

But this does not explain why Switzerland, so often thought of as a peaceful country, should have so many family killings.


A recent study indicated that 58% of all murders in Switzerland were within the family. In the Netherlands, also a peaceful, prosperous Western European country, the figure is 29%.

Mr Boess blames the Swiss army's policy of requiring Swiss men, who all have to do military service, to keep their guns and ammunition at home in case of an emergency call-up.

What that means is that nearly all Swiss men have a sturmgewehr - a sub-machine gun - stored somewhere in their homes.

Those who make it to officer level have an automatic pistol too, and when men leave the army, they are allowed to keep their guns. No licence is required.

"If things go wrong, he can go upstairs, get the gun, and shoot," says Mr Boess.

In most of Switzerland's "family dramas", an army gun is used. Stadler shot his famous wife with his officer's pistol.

"It's very common to hear women tell how their husbands remind them they have a gun in moments of tension," says Brigitte Schnegg, professor of gender politics at Berne University.

"They'll say: 'If you don't do what I want, don't forget I've got my gun upstairs.'"

'Male honour'

For Ms Schnegg, the prevalence of guns together with the slow pace of equality in Switzerland, where women did not get the right to vote until 1971, have formed a lethal combination.

"We have a country in which, until recently, men were legally classed as the head of the household. They were the sole providers, the ones in charge and in control," she explains.

"I think these killings are the 'honour killings' of Switzerland," she says. "Family problems are seen as a defeat for the man, it all has to do with male honour."

Psychologist Philip Jaffe agrees with this interpretation, but believes it will take years for male attitudes to change.

In the meantime, he has a suggestion for reducing the violence, but it means challenging the much-loved tradition of keeping the guns at home.

"I think the guns should not be kept at home," he says.

"It's absolutely absurd when you think about it. For them to be available, in the cupboard or whatever, it creates the opportunity to use a lethal weapon in the heat of the moment, and that's very scary for many families. "

The Swiss gun lobby is strong, and until now all attempts at gun control have been defeated.

But when Corinne Rey-Bellet and her brother were buried side-by-side in their home town, on the day that should have been Alain's wedding day, even the most enthusiastic gun owners began to waver.

For the first time, opinion polls show a majority of Swiss want the guns out of their homes, and stored in a safer place.

The days when every Swiss man had a weapon, in the garage next to the kids' bikes or the lawnmower, may be numbered.


Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/europe/4755143.stm

Published: 2006/05/09 17:09:01 GMT
 
"They'll say: 'If you don't do what I want, don't forget I've got my gun upstairs.'"
You know... I'm married to a redhead. If I ever said anything close to that to my wife? She'd nod, go along with me, and then kill my stupid ass in my sleep.

It's amazing to me, how for years every time a liberal tried to plead their case to me, whether it was about sexual freedom or gun control or gas taxes or economic policy or worker's rights or whatever, they would always throw in a bunch of nonsense about how things are done in Europe. Europeans were so enlightened. So peaceful. So healthy, and so happy. Now it seems like every day we get another story about how they're a bunch of racists, sexists, and their economies are an ongoing disaster.

I try to get my head around this stuff when I read it, but I guess I just can't. A majority of the people from any nation saying "We can't be trusted with firearms! Please take them away from us Father Government!" seems so absurd to me that it's almost laughable.
 
Yeah, I wrote about that here.

Gun control profits from sensational headlines, and gun control in a peaceful country like Switzerland is tossing the baby with the bathwater.
 
Aw, man. Switzerland was always the best example of how a "well-regulated militia" should be. Everyone has a gun, the entire nation is the army.

But it looks like the grabbers have been oozing their influence in there, now, too.

WHY do they do it? Do they just need a cause and are deluded? Do they really WANT to open the door to dictatorships and genocides around the world? Or were they just dropped on their heads as children?
 
The murder last week of one of Switzerland's most famous skiers has forced the Swiss to look long and hard at a crime that is worryingly common in their society.
Corinne Rey-Bellet was shot by her husband Gerold Stadler just days after the couple had agreed to separate.

Stadler also shot and killed Rey-Bellet's brother Alain, and seriously wounded her mother, before finally killing himself.

The Swiss media tend to call cases like this "family dramas", in which a man kills his wife, often his own children, and himself.


"I think the guns should not be kept at home," he says.

"It's absolutely absurd when you think about it. For them to be available, in the cupboard or whatever, it creates the opportunity to use a lethal weapon in the heat of the moment, and that's very scary for many families. "

The Swiss gun lobby is strong, and until now all attempts at gun control have been defeated.

But when Corinne Rey-Bellet and her brother were buried side-by-side in their home town, on the day that should have been Alain's wedding day, even the most enthusiastic gun owners began to waver.

For the first time, opinion polls show a majority of Swiss want the guns out of their homes, and stored in a safer place.

The days when every Swiss man had a weapon, in the garage next to the kids' bikes or the lawnmower, may be numbered.

Yeah they need to stop being so well run and orderly, the lack of crime and unemployment compared to the rest of Europe especially gun free England is embarassing those other countries. A strong Family well educated children everyone taking responsibility for their actions, serving in the military, voting on every law that gets passed. All of that is an affront to the rest of Europe.

I mean its not like he could have killed them with a kitchen knife if he didnt have a gun.;) And if he had stabbed them, they would be less dead than they are now right????
 
"For the first time, opinion polls show a majority of Swiss want the guns out of their homes, and stored in a safer place.

The days when every Swiss man had a weapon, in the garage next to the kids' bikes or the lawnmower, may be numbered. "

Another one bites the dust...:(
 
Hmmmm......So family slaughters are shockingly common in Switzerland because 14 have occored in the last year? Come on. Way more people are gunned down in drive-bys and other gangland violence in the U.S. each year, and gun owners are a minority here. Taking away firearms will make no safer and will indeed have just the opposite effect. Thosw who want to murder will murder. If not with a gun than with a knife, or a baseball bat, or a bowling ball, or a chair leg or a plastic bat or with rat poinson,-the list goes on and on. Taking firearms from the populace only weakens the nation as a whole. Sad.


I must say I am surprised that they didn't use the word assualt rifle in the artcile. Especially since they said sturmgewehr.
 
Did some traveling a few years ago in Trinidad. Guns are strictly controled there, so no families are murdered, right? Ah.... no. The wepon of coice there is the machette. Usually stored in garage next to the kids bike.
 
WHY do they do it? Do they just need a cause and are deluded?

Outside influence most likely.
Youve got people here who will go to any country to push their cause. In their view everyone in the world should be equally unarmed, and since they cant do it here then they will go somplace where they can.
 
The gun, in this situation, didn't do anything that couldn't be done just as easily with a can of gas and some matches. These types of "family dramas" are evidence of deep pychological problems, the kind that would get you banned from owning guns here in the US. Mabey the Swiss would be better served by looking into those issuse than dissarming their military.
 
The gun, in this situation, didn't do anything that couldn't be done just as easily with a can of gas and some matches. These types of "family dramas" are evidence of deep pychological problems, the kind that would get you banned from owning guns here in the US. Mabey the Swiss would be better served by looking into those issuse than dissarming their military.

I would strongly disagree here. Some of these are crimes of passion, I think--that is to say, crimes committed out of sudden, severe emotional reactions--not crimes rooted in psychological disorder, no matter how hard the media try to claim otherwise. And in those cases, there would be no "problems" to detect. However, a mere 14 incidents does not a trend, or even a noteworthy factoid, make. This "news" article is trying to make us believe that military service is causing mental problems, and that the presence of weapons is causing murders. Both points are completely fabricated attempts to engineer the social outlook toward gun confiscation and government control.

The bottom line is, things like this happen, in all countries and environments. Sweeping generalizations, especially blaming the object for the crime of its user, are the specialty of the political left, and are predictable. Equally predictable is the fact that the results of implementing their police states invariably are: no good, and much harm.
 
And of course the whole thing was wrote by British, so it is typical BS :barf: :cuss: . Why don't they just shut the F up at last and be ashamed of their ignorance and the lack of caring about their "subjects" (which gives the idea, IMHO, that people are just an objects, last place of ignorant monarchy). And stop forcing their mental vomit on others. I don't think the killing would have been avoided if there weren't any guns. If there's need the tools can be always had. 14 killings in a year? come on, people die here at this amount per month, even if our population is close to 1.3 million only.
 
I've lived in Switzerland, in Zurich. The lack of crime was very apparent. Obviously the presence of guns in the home was a major factor but also Swiss society is structured differently, very differently.
It is absolutely uncommon to own your own home, people live in rented or co-operative apartments.
I lived with two girls in one such apartment, the bathroom was down a short hallway opposite from our glass panel front door into the communal entrance hallway. Our bathroom had no door. So when I showered, when they showered, people walking into the building could see into our apartment and watch us undressing, drying ourselves etc. I soon got used to it.
It was a very open society. My misconception before I lived there was that the Swiss were reserved and quiet like the British (I'm British by birth, now American). They aren't reserved, they are just calm and collected.
This affects the crime (IMO) by making all society like a village, people notice each other, people are accountable to each other, there isn't the same anonimity there is elsewhere.
But the guns did help. A lot. I found that in Israel too. You don't mess about if you have the notion that anyone and everyone might be armed and proficient.
 
Or were they just dropped on their heads as children?
I don't think this is the problem.
I was dropped on my head as a child.
More specifically, I pulled myself off of a reach in freezer and dropped myself on my head.
I like to think I turned out fine.
 
DocZinn said:
Irrelevant. What is the actual murder rate?


According to nationmaster,


Netherlands: 0.0111538 per 1,000 people
Switzerland: 0.00921351 per 1,000 people
UK: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people - Gunfree you know...
US: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
Columbia: 0.617847 per 1,000 people
Jamaica: 0.324196 per 1,000 people
Russia: 0.201534 per 1,000 people
Mexico: 0.130213 per 1,000 people

Interesting how Russia and Mexico are both in the top 10, yet are hard ascribants to gun bans.....

Oh, The US is #24 in the we
 
You know, I'm married to a redhead too. She has said (jokingly) that if I ever nutted out and threatened her with violence, she would shoot me with my own gun. She wants to keep her guns. :evil:
 
What is the most liberal country in Europe for gun ownership? Switzerland is a thorn in the side of the dis-arming the world crowd.

These anti's have been making inroads in Switzerland for quite a few years. How convient to have a shooting of this magnitued there.

Kinda reminds you of Tasmania which brought strict gun control to Australia. Also how about the JFK assination to bring on the gun control act of l968?

In my opinion I see a corelation here. The UN does want to disarm the world. Switzerland is the last bastion of freedom to own firearms in Europe.

We are next. The pot has been boiling for a number of years. Each anti-gun law passed we seem to be able to live with it and jump through all the hoops to comply.

When is enough enough?:mad:
 
Switzerland is indeed European, they just aren't EU members. This is based on their neutrality in the world, a concept that is, actually, fairly recent. The bitter truth happens to be the Swiss have lost every major war they fought, most notably being squashed by Napoleon. They reformed their nation in the mid 1800's, and then started their notion of neutrality as when they took sides, the rarely came out ahead.

Ash
 
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