Don't Care About Bullet-Type?

[TennJed]

lead cast. RN in autos wadcutters in revolvers

 

[mljdeckard]

I started a thread a while ago about how people really worry too much about overpenetration. OF COURSE they overpenetrate. If I thought a bullet wouldn't completely traverse a human target under most circumstances, I wouldn't carry it.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Hollowpoints, even premium ones, are cheap compared to the cost of your life. You don't have to shoot them for practice at the range. Two 20-round boxes will fill your gun and spare magazine. And while the "latest and greatest" bullet is nice to have, it isn't absolutely necessary. I have no problem with plain old Federal 9BPs (conventional 115-gr. JHP at standard pressure) that cost ~20% less than their premium line.

 

[mavracer]

Am I the only one who finds all these examples of folks of the mentality that they RELY on jhp's not overpenatrating a bit scary

no your not.

 

[David E]

remain unconvinced that JHPs are truly better - based on a combination of the following points:

I wonder what convinced the NYPD (and others) to get away from issuing FMJ..........

1. I see comment after comment on this board and elsewhere on the net, where people make claims like, "It's obvious! JHPs will stop when they hit drywall/plywood/etc in homes, so over-penetration isn't an issue!!!

I've never seen that claim, nor have I ever made it.

Or, "Ammo manufacturers and others have conducted so many tests proving that FMJ over-penetrates, and JHPs don't."

Set up some ballistic jello and see which one penetrates further. Now, understand, a crappy JHP might equal the fmj in penetration, so you might have to pop for the $1.00 a round to get a good JHP

The thing is, for every claim like these (always without a single cited source of the "information"), you'll find another claim refuting it.

Odd, I've never seen a claim saying "Gold Dots penetrate more than FMJ!"

2. Gelatin isn't flesh, plywood, or sheetrock;

Why are you shooting plywood and sheetrock? Are you being attacked by them?

people stating that JHPs will collapse when FMJ won't (which would prevent over-penetration), I've seen another comment saying JHPs will "clog up" and function exactly like FMJs - even on basic cotton clothing.

Many JHP's do clog up....the better ones (more expensive) typically do not.

If, by some chance, you do have a link to a video where someone tests penetration in plywood or sheetrock, comparing FMJs and JHPs, I'd love to see it. IMO this type of test, conducted properly, would give far more useful information than shooting ballistic gelatin - at least as far as over-penetration is concerned.

Check out "www.boxotruth.com". I don't understand your preoccupation with plywood and sheetrock, since you won't find any in the dark parking lot and 1000 other places you might be attacked.

Carry what you want, but it sure seems like you're going to great lengths to rationalize a decision that was originally based on frugality, not performance.

 

[JR47]

My overall take on this is that most JHP manufactured after the mid-1990's is better at reliable expansion, even through barriers. The FBI Protocols had become the Holy Grail for manufacturers looking for LEO bids.

I don't buy new ammunition every month for SD. I buy it by the case, and use it up slowly. If an ammo was "the best" in 2003, it will still be a good performer in 2012. In fact, the manufacturer has probably tweaked it along the way to improve performance.

Collapsing a JHP makes it perform just like an FMJ, by the way. So, plugged solid, or collapsed operate in the same manner.

In the early 1990's we did some bullet testing in an apartment project slated to be torn down. It had been a new Section 8 Housing, built in the 1970's, and treated in the normal manner by it's inhabitants, poorly.

We fired through interior walls with various ammunition, in 9x19, .380 ACP, .22 LR, and .45 ACP. ALL of them, JHP and FMJ penetrated completely through at least the following room, with one exception. The 9x19 Glaser Blue penetrated the first wall at caliber size, the next wall, about 4" away in a blast about 4" in diameter, but failed to penetrate a woman's summer shirt on a hanger one foot behind that wall.

ALL of the JHP expanded at least minimally on it's way through multiple walls. Some had wall-board embedded in the cavity. FMJ just kept going until it's energy was expended. Usually another two walls beyond the JHP.

Later, we came back with a 6" Model 29 S&W. It's 240 gr JHP penetrated the walls of three complete units, struck the outer wall of brick, and knocked the brick loose, and onto the ground. The bullet was obviously expanded, but mangled by the brick.

I am a CCW holder, and go about armed. I am certainly less concerned about penetrating auto glass, sheet-metal, plywood and wallboard than an LEO. If any of those barriers are between me and the attacker, I intend to use them at first opportunity to dis-engage and let the police handle the rest of the shoot-out.

Most of us will face an attacker in dim light, at distances of less than seven feet. We will be presented with frontal shots upon unarmored targets. Those are the statistics.

If you intend to be in combat against hordes of weight-lifting druggies, carrying automotive windshields or 1" thick plywood shields, arm yourself accordingly. My choice would be a Heavy-Weapons Company of Marines.

 

[buck460XVR]

Whatever JHP brand I handload works for me.

Amen to that. I'm more concerned about accuracy and reliability than whether or not I have the latest magic bullet on the market. Most any modern JHP designed for SD will perform well enough when used at the velocities they were designed for. If you hit where you need to, small differences in expansion ain't gonna matter. Miss and the $2 a pop HP is no better than a miss with cheap ball ammo. One cannot control what the perp is wearng, the muscle tone of the BG or what they may be standing behind. All these affect how consistently a JHP may or may not expand, regardless of make or how it performs on ballistic jel. What one can control and become consistent with is shot placement. This depends on how much one practices and how accurate the ammo is. This in the big picture is what's important. Hit any BG dead center in the sternum and it won't matter what SD ammo you are using. The result will be the same.....even with FMJ, and just as quick.

As for the argument about shooting a deer in the lungs with a FMJ. 40 years ago before Compounds were popular I consistently took deer with recurves and fixed blade broadheads by shooting them in the lungs. A fixed blade broadhead is basically a FMJ projectile. Very seldom did I get pass thru using those old recurves, but every time I hit a deer in the lungs, they were dead. Even without a exit wound, the blood trail would be evident even to someone color blind. Even without a exit wound and the arrow blocking the flow of blood coming from the entrance wound, the blood blowing out the deers nose/mouth was more than enough to track it for the 40 yards it ran. Just sayin'.

 

[481]

I don't know what's "the best", but I am happy with most of the current JHPs out there- HST, PDX1, Gold Dots, etc.

 

[meatballs]

Yeah, I buy a box of good JHP ammo every few months, and run a few through the old .45er just to make sure it likes them. If you are only buying them a couple, or even a few times a year, I think JHPs are worth it.

 

[TAKtical]

There was a guy in my area recently that got robbed at a gas station and put 3 rounds of 45acp into the BG's torso, 1 JHP and 2 standard ball. The next day, the BG was playing playstation in the hospital and posting on facebook.

 

[David E]

There was a guy in my area recently that got robbed at a gas station and put 3 rounds of 45acp into the BG's torso, 1 JHP and 2 standard ball. The next day, the BG was playing playstation in the hospital and posting on facebook.

What he does the next day doesn't matter nearly as much as: "did he immediately stop doing the thing he was being shot for?"

If so, the rounds/gun/defender did what they were supposed to.

If not, then further details are required.

 

[buck460XVR]

I don't know what's "the best", but I am happy with most of the current JHPs out there- HST, PDX1, Gold Dots, etc.

...and that's how it should be. Folks should do their homework and be informed, but they also need to use what they are comfortable with, confident with and what they are most proficient with. Regardless of what the keyboard commandos and gun rag hype says. They should respect other folks choices just as others should respect theirs.

 

[David E]

They should respect other folks choices just as others should respect theirs.

I don't care if they respect mine and I certainly don't have to respect theirs.

I don't know when that started. Some time ago, I heard of a teacher on a call-in show befuddled by a student. Teacher says, "the substance in the salt shaker is salt." Student says, "but in MY opinion, it's sugar!"

Student thinks that he doesn't have to agree with the fact and can, by stating in his opinion it's sugar, present that opinion to be as equally strong as the fact, since opinions, somehow, can't be challenged.

Should his "opinion" be respected? Not by me. He's an idiot and any future interactions with him will be strained thru my "he's an idiot" filter.

 

[Bobson]

Input from a couple specific people here have caused me to reevaluate my position. I'll be ordering a couple boxes of 124gr +P Gold Dots from Buds tonight.

Also, I appreciate your idea of an idiot filter, Dave.

 

[David E]

Input from a couple specific people here have caused me to reevaluate my position. I'll be ordering a couple boxes of 124gr +P Gold Dots from Buds tonight.

It's always prudent to ensure the defensive ammo, whatever it is, functions reliably in the specific firearm.....even if it costs $1.00 a shot.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Yes...Only the best...My reloads.

 

[Fiv3r]

I'll sometimes run 230gr fmj in my .45s, but never in a 9mm.

I'll just parrot what the others have said, buy a box or two of good stuff and try it out for function and accuracy in your gun. Usually whatever you pick is going to be fine unless you your gun is notoriously picky. Just load up your gun and mags with the good stuff until you go to the range.

I shoot cheap fmj at paper and MAYBE a mag of my premium ammo once every other month.

A carry piece is an insurance policy. When packing it, it should be ready to go at the most optimal of levels including maximum potential for bullet performance. Feed it whatever you want at the range. Lord knows I'm not picky what slop I shoot through mine there, but quality all the way for EDC.

 

[buck460XVR]

I don't care if they respect mine and I certainly don't have to respect theirs.

I don't know when that started. Some time ago, I heard of a teacher on a call-in show befuddled by a student. Teacher says, "the substance in the salt shaker is salt." Student says, "but in MY opinion, it's sugar!"

Student thinks that he doesn't have to agree with the fact and can, by stating in his opinion it's sugar, present that opinion to be as equally strong as the fact, since opinions, somehow, can't be challenged.

Should his "opinion" be respected? Not by me. He's an idiot and any future interactions with him will be strained thru my "he's an idiot" filter.

So someone hands me a firearm and tells me it's not loaded. In my opinion, every gun is loaded. I open the bolt and check to make sure....am I an idiot for not taking that other opinion for fact?

In the story about the teacher you tell us she claims the substance in the salt shaker is salt without any other proof other than what, it's white? Without conclusive evidence her statement is not a fact but opinion and has no more creditability than the student's, which is based on the same disputable evidence. The student didn't say his opinion couldn't be challenged, but that the teachers statement was not fact but opinion. This is what an opinion is. A subjective conclusion resulting from one's personal interpretation of the facts presented mixed with their emotions and experience. That's why opposing opinions can be made from the same set of insufficient facts. Add to the argument unsubstantiated information and that's all you have....... opinions. My wife is prettier than yours is an opinion. Gettin' shot in the heart with a shotgun without immediate medical attention and you will die, is a fact. Even had that teacher put some on that substance on the students tongue, depending where on the students tongue she placed it may have influenced the students conclusion. Had she presented chemical analysis that proved without a doubt it was salt, then it is no longer an opinion. Your own signature says it well....."learn the difference, it isn't hard."

If you don't care if others respect your opinions and you certainly don't respect others, why even participate in a community forum? Why not just have a blog or your own site titled "David E's irrefutable knowledge."? Most of us here are here to glean knowledge and experiences from others. Firearms, ammo and their accessories are subject to opinions because most of our choices are made on appearance, emotions, experience and advice from others. Opinions, not facts. Since opinions many times are based on emotion, folks tend to get emotional when their opinions are challenged. Facts are, even the most thorough ammo tests leave room for interpretation and don't cover every scenario. Facts are, no bullet has yet hit the market that has proven to be the best performer in all scenarios. Anyone that won't admit that will get stuck in that filter.

 

[David E]

So someone hands me a firearm and tells me it's not loaded. In my opinion, every gun is loaded. I open the bolt and check to make sure....am I an idiot for not taking that other opinion for fact?

Nope. But you're an idiot if you know it's loaded, then hand it to someone telling them it's not.

In the story about the teacher you tell us she claims the substance in the salt shaker is salt without any other proof other than what, it's white?

Quibble if you wish. I distilled the essence of the conversation to make my point. Its pointless to dispute peripherals that were thoroughly explained in the the 27 paragraphs I didn't include. The point was, since you missed it, the kid thought he could argue a proven fact by stating another view as his opinion.

If you don't care if others respect your opinions

I am confident that folks will, through experience and by conducting their own research will arrive at opinions similar to my own. And if they do all that and arrive at a different one, then they'll know WHY they did, which is worth something. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but they'll understand how I got there.

and you certainly don't respect others,

Wrong. I don't respect IDIOTIC opinions. If someone says "in my opinion, its possible to fire a .40 in a 9mm," that's an "opinion" I'm not going to respect. You, of course, can respect it all you want.

why even participate in a community forum? Why not just have a blog or your own site titled "David E's irrefutable knowledge."?

I never said I have irrefutable knowledge.....but I, like you, have discovered things that are, indeed, irrefutable. If someone's "opinion" is opposite the irrefutable fact, I'm going to dismiss that idiotic opinion and side with the irrefutable fact.

opinions many times are based on emotion,

These are worth the least. If one cannot articulate how they arrived at their opinion, then that opinion is suspect. If you say the .460 is, in your opinion, the best handgun/round for hunting, I'll favor that opinion over the guy that says, in his opinion, a Glock 19 is "all you need for bear, just be sure to use fmj's....."

Facts are, no bullet has yet hit the market that has proven to be the best performer in all scenarios. Anyone that won't admit that will get stuck in that filter.

That's funny. I never specified a particular bullet for anything. Nor did I claim the perfect, best performing all around bullet existed.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Hey Bobson, why on earth would you/do you carry hardball in your 9mm again? Not that I'm your keeper or anything of course but that seems about the silliest/most ignorant thing a body could do.
Please elaborate.

 

[buck460XVR]

Nope. But you're an idiot if you know it's loaded, then hand it to someone telling them it's not.

One can also be called an idiot for handing a gun to someone he thinks is unloaded without checking it. This is an opinion. Checking it and seeing it is indeed unloaded makes it a fact. This is the point I am making. Opinions by definition are subjective and can be argued. Facts are objective and have proof. There is proof that Jesus Christ lived amongst us, whether he was really the son of God is a opinion. If you are an Atheist, you might call Christians idiots, or vice versa, but that isn't a fact, it is an opinion.

Quibble if you wish. I distilled the essence of the conversation to make my point. Its pointless to dispute peripherals that were explained in the the 27 paragraphs I didn't include.

Your choice to not include those other 27 paragraphs is also a prime example on how one forms a opinion based on insufficient facts. Many times folks will edit or "distill" things, or take words/facts out of context to sway arguments one way or the other. Information presented this way is always highly suspect. Hard for folks to make a legitimate assessment when the information has been compromised. Seems it would be hard to insult them based on a opinion formed by your misrepresentation of the facts.

Wrong. I don't respect IDIOTIC opinions. If someone says "in my opinion, its possible to fire a .40 in a 9mm," that's an "opinion" I'm not going to respect.

That is a case where you have factual evidence to prove your point. If the person referred to above was a new shooter or a child with no previous knowledge of guns, does that make them a idiot? No, it makes them uninformed. I'm sure there are questions either one of us could ask the other knowing all too well the other doesn't have the answer. Does not make us both idiots. Facts are a .40 won't fire in a 9mm, but saying that one or the other is better is an opinion.

These are worth the least. If one cannot articulate how they arrived at their opinion, then that opinion is suspect.

Again, by definition, opinions are based on emotion. You might not like it, but those are the facts. Opinions on many controversial issues like abortion or capitol punishment are all about emotion and are based very little on factual evidence of any kind. That does not make them any more suspect than any other opinion. Opinions based on insufficient or incorrect information are much more suspect.....in my humble opinion.

 

[Certaindeaf]

It is my opinion that someone that has the smaller orifice can piss the farthest.

 

[huntsman]

^ and the magic bullet fan club will always shout the loudest, they'll cite all sorts of charts, studies and ballistic alchemy,not to educate but to justify their own decisions because the weak need the safety of the crowd.

OP carry what you want but understand the ammo you've chosen is made for a price point not quality.

 

[Certaindeaf]

.quality.

Quality is what we're talking about. A "quality" fmj is a commodity. a pretty lame/bad one

 

[David E]

Buck460XVR, I love ya, man!

But it's pointless to continue that conversation.

Now, if you talk about your .460 gun, loads and hunting experiences, I'd read that post.