"Don't clear your house"

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Well my house is at least 100 years old. So I can tell pretty quickly if someone is walking around downstairs. Not even a ninja could avoid creeking floorboards. My cat cant even get up those stairs without creeking. So the way I would clear my house is get out of bed with my gun and light in hand. Open my bedroom door and listen for a minute or two. Ill know if someones moving around in the house. If I hear footsteps I bunker.
 
Wow as usual this thread has turned into two camps. But what I have noticed is the so called "hunker down" camp has allowed the possibility of leaving the safety of their "bunker" to go get the children or others. Obviously in that situation you gotta do what you gotta do. However the other camp of" my castle and thats that" makes no allownaces to hunker down if need be. That is the point of what the "hunker down" camp is trying to say. Sometimes if your situation calls for it, it just might be safer. Besides not all states are friendly towards castle doctrine yet. And even the ones that are, most will not allow you to shoot to defend property any ways.

For example, say I find in my house a robber. He is holding some of my stuff. I tell him to drop it and stay put. He says shoot me then and proceeds to leave with my stuff. Guess what? I can't do anything about it! As long as he is not putting my life in danger I have to let him walk! I ain't willing to go to jail for years for my stuff. Now of course this scenario varies location to location. This scenario only applies to me in MY location.

To Kodiak, you have the training obviously. But when you cleared those drug boats, I bet you still did it as a team, or had backup close by. In your house, who is your backup?

As far as the camp I belong to? Neither I guess. I don't have children and because of the condo I live in and there is only one way in and out (unless your willing to climb ten stories) I don't have to hunker in my bedroom either. While your trying to get into my place through the front door I will be waiting in the living room, gun in one hand, 911 in the other on the phone. Kicking in the door will be loud and won't be easy as my front door is hardened against a kick in. Then again a robber won't be kicking in any doors....lol. That would be a home invasion scenario.
 
For example, say I find in my house a robber. He is holding some of my stuff. I tell him to drop it and stay put. He says shoot me then and proceeds to leave with my stuff. Guess what? I can't do anything about it!

Even where you could legally shoot the guy (Castle states), I don't think it would be morally defensible, so let him run away. At least you've interrupted the process and he doesn't get to steal everything you own.

And again - he isn't coming back to face your gun again. If you give him a free pass by locking your bedroom door and calling 911, he now knows you're an easy touch. He's going to be back, possibly with friends, since he now knows you'll offer no resistance whatsoever. You might as well just toss your wallet and keys down to him as well.
 
Posted by KodiakBeer: I'm willing to kill to defend my family, home and possessions.
You are obviously willing to put yourself at risk to try to do so.

Of course, if he or they get the upper hand, who then defends your family?

By the way, watch what you say about using deadly force to "defend possessions", and watch what you do. Know your state law, including the meaning of appellate decsions, and know that what you post can be used against you, should the occasion arise. Note: do not rely on a lay interpretation of the code.

And I ask (again) what data you can provide to show an armed homeowner is at a disadvantage?
I do not think that anyone on THR believes that an armed homeowner is at a disadvantage.

It is the person who walks into the other person's ambush who is at a very extreme disadvantage. If the intruders are there to do real harm (rather than just taking valuables) and they try to attack a homeowner who is armed and ready in a defensive position, it is they who will be at a real disadvantage.

Data? It has been provided several times now.

The reality is you can protect your property or you can hunker down and let them steal your property.
I can try to protect it and I can fail.

I cannot conceive of wanting to be permanently injured or killed in an attempt protect property of any kind.

The police will turn on the sirens to give him warning when it's time to go.
Really?

The police will use sirens on their way to a fire, an accident scene, or a medical emergency, or in a car chase.

I have seen police cars responding to vandalism, shoplifting, armed robbery, and burglary calls. They do not use their sirens.

Why? You said it yourself.

When they arrive, they'll fill out a form. They're done. You lose.
Actually, the homeowner wins if no one in the family is injured and if he does not have the blood of an intruder on his carpet.

Even if he gets through the encounter uninjured, and even if his shooting of an intruder is ruled to have justified, he will likely wish that he had not done so.

Some of Massad Ayoobs' books relate what shooters who acted lawfully have gone through afterwards. Best to avoid that if possible.

In reality, a BG has zero motivation to engage in a gunfight. He's going to take what he already has and run with it. Which (in my opinion) is going to be the case 99% of the time. He doesn't want to die (or kill) for a few hundred bucks worth of loot.
On that, we agree, unless he or they are there for something much more diabolical.

So, if he doesn't want to harm me, I do not see any wisdom at all in giving him a very strong motive to shoot me by making him defend himself against me.

That is exactly what going out and pointing a gun at him would do. At the very least, I would force him to take desperate action to avoid capture.

At least, there has been no indication that any of the burglars who have shot and killed homeowners in our large metro area in the last year or so had any other motivation.

There was a rape committed by a burglar the other day, however.
 
And again - he isn't coming back to face your gun again. If you give him a free pass by locking your bedroom door and calling 911, he now knows you're an easy touch. He's going to be back, possibly with friends, since he now knows you'll offer no resistance whatsoever. You might as well just toss your wallet and keys down to him as well.

True, good point. But at the same time I wouldn't go looking for him either. Then again in this small condo wouldn't have to.....lol
 
In reality, a BG has zero motivation to engage in a gunfight. He's going to take what he already has and run with it. Which (in my opinion) is going to be the case 99% of the time. He doesn't want to die (or kill) for a few hundred bucks worth of loot.
On that, we agree, unless he or they are there for something much more diabolical.

Which flies in the face of the 10:1 odds you defended earlier in the same post. You can't have it both ways. Make up your mind.
 
At least, there has been no indication that any of the burglars who have shot and killed UNARMED homeowners in our large metro area in the last year or so had any other motivation.

There, fixed it for you.
 
Posted by KodoakBeer: [That BG has zero motivation to engage in a gunfight] flies in the face of the 10:1 odds you defended earlier in the same post. You can't have it both ways. Make up your mind.
No, no, NO.

Those "odds" have to do with the outcome once an encounter has been attempted. They are the measure of the inherent advantage of the defender over the attacker.

Motivation is one thing. Advantage is another thing altogether.

I have zero motivation to engage in a gunfight. If I am forced into it, however, I will avail myself of every possible advantage.

An intruder may not want to get into a gunfight at all, but I can certainly provide him with sufficient motivation to shoot me by going after him.

By doing so, I have also given him an overwhelming advantage.
 
Those "odds" have to do with the outcome once an encounter has been attempted.

I see, so BG's are ten times more motivated to engage in a fight, ten times better armed, ten times better trained and have ten times the knowledge of the home layout than the resident?

All of that flies in the face of reason. In fact, the BG is probably some tweaker whose sole motivation is to run like hell when confronted. Or, if not confronted to stay and steal as much stuff as he can get his hands on - and to return as often as he likes since he is now assured this home is a "safe zone" for burglars.
 
If you lead with your weapon, chances are you'll get it snatched or bound.

Based on what? Some fact you read on the internet?
 
The general rule of thumb, is that clearing your home (Whether it's a false alarm or a real home invasion) is relative to each scenario. Just how we don't know and cannot prepare for every type of violent encounter, you cannot gauge an emergency situation by past experiences, history, records or news reports; every instance and situation differs and the defensive/offensive approach you take on a different encounter is going to be relative to each of themselves. The only way to prepare for such a situation is to run different, though obscure, random situations through your head. You can most definitely be under-prepared, but never over-prepared. It never hurts to know the choke points, wall-bang spots, fatal funnels, hard/soft cover points, concealment points, dark spots, etc. in your home. It also doesn't hurt to practice quick peeking, cutting the pie, covering corners, kneeling/prone shooting, low light/flash light shooting, cross hook/button hook entries, etc. For those that live with others in the home, there may be a time where clearing the home is the only way to verify the safety of the others inside. I personally believe a person should already know all the advantageous/disadvantageous locations of their home, being at an advantage a majority of the time inside. Your average home invader/burglar/perp isn't going to know the layout and aforementioned spots as well as you are; it just isn't plausible. Even if they've been scoping out your place for months, there is just so much that they can see and plan for. Once inside the home for the first time, it's most likely going to be dark, too. Regardless of what others say, (Whether you are in the shower or sleeping), once inside your home, you still have a slight advantage, even over multiple attackers. There are tactics to both sides; there are their advantages to staying mobile, clearing and attacking as you go throughout your home's safe points, yet there is also an advantage to holding down a fortified spot. I personally think I would hunker down and hold down my room, because it's the easier, faster and more throughly planned out tactic in my case. Even so, I also have a plan B, just in case I have to un-ass the area or even a plan A to B changer, in case the goblin wants to set my home on fire or takes a hostage.
 
KodiakBeer said:
...All of that flies in the face of reason. In fact, the BG is probably some tweaker whose sole motivation is to run like hell when confronted....
You must be clairvoyant. You know who your home invader will be. Mine hasn't sent me his curriculum vitae yet.

What flies in the face of reason is the delusion that you can predict the disposition of the intruder.

BTW, here is an example of what can happen if you go investigating: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/103008dnmetwatauga.15d488fa9.html. The BG was outnumbered. The BG brought a knife to a gunfight. The BG was on unfamiliar territory. But the BG also had a significant tactical advantage and won the fight.
 
What flies in the face of reason is the delusion that you can predict the disposition of the intruder.

The DOJ put out a report that showed that in 10 cities over %54 of the crimes went unsolved. This should be raising a red flag.

What this truly means is, if the crimes are distributed equally throughout the spectrum, that we're gauging what a criminal will or will not do, intelligence of the lack-there-of, based off of the bottom %46 of the criminals that got caught. Quite simply put, %54 of the time it's immeasurable.

Every criminal, regardless of wanting gun fight or not, that breaks into a home (in most cases) is taking roughly %25 chance of meeting a gun.
 
KodiakBeer said:
I see, so BG's are ten times more motivated to engage in a fight, ten times better armed, ten times better trained and have ten times the knowledge of the home layout than the resident?

I think you might misunderstand the 10:1 advantage of the BG is you go searching for him. It doesn't mean he is more motivated, better armed, better trained or has better knowledge of your layout. The advantage quoted means that even without all these advantages...which one would hope lay with the homeowner...the BG will still come out on top at the ratio of 10:1.

I've gone through the training as both the searcher and as the BG, and there is no doubt in my mind the huge disadvantage you are at if you choose to look for someone in a house. Bear in mind that the 10:1 advantage ratio does not include the BGs who flee as you start your search...it is based on the ones who stay to confront you
 
Creature said:
kodiak and doublenaught...its futile to argue with those who have seen everything and know all.

...and maybe with this in mind, it is time to put this one to bed.

Anyone reading this can come to their own conclusions as both sides have been pretty well discussed
 
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