Don't Talk to the Cops - Videos

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lima_w said:
...would you opt for a criminal defense lawyer, or are there lawyers who deal specifically with self defense cases? Does the NRA have a list of recommended lawyers? In case of such an incident I would like to have a good idea of who to call, I don't want to make my decision with the phone book ads
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[1] You definitely want a defense lawyer who has solid experience handling self defense cases.

Pleading self defense is very different from the usual defense strategy in a criminal case. The usual criminal defense is basically "I wasn't there, I didn't do it, you can't prove that I did it." This essentially involves attacking the prosecution's evidence to create a reasonable doubt.

But the defense of self defense is basically "I did it, but I was legally justified." That involves affirmatively introducing evidence to support your claim.

Most good criminal defense lawyers are experienced and skilled with the usual defense strategy, but have very little, if any, experience putting on a self defense case.

[2] I doubt that there are any lawyers who specialize in self defense cases. I doubt that there are enough of them to make it economically feasible for a criminal defense lawyer to specialize so narrowly. And AFAIK, the NRA wouldn't have a list.

[3] It can be tough to find the right kind of lawyer. If you know any LEOs, you could ask who the local police association/union uses to defend police officers in use of force matters. Another source for possible referral would be your state/local RKBA organizations. You could also consider the Armed Citizen's Legal Defense Network (http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/). I know that the president of the Armed Citizen's Legal Defense Network, Marty Hayes, is a member here. I also understand that he and some other lawyers have taught continuing legal education classes in several states on handling self defense cases.
 
I'll be happy to provide a little insight to this question with 25 years experience from the Police side.

I work in a major metropolitan area in Texas. I have worked a lot of shootings.
The vast majority of the time, shootings are bad guys on bad guys. Though, technically, it may be self defense, the shooting stems from a dope deal, gambling debt, money owed, something. Other than convenience store clerks, the "victim" is rarely innocent, nor is the shooter.

The odds of John Q Public needing to shoot an assailant is rare. Be it a robbery, burglary or an assault, it does not happen very often. When it does, and, the shooter is an honest citizen that truly needed to use deadly force to protect themselves, their loved ones or their home, we are giddy about it. Its bad form to be high fiving the good citizen on the street, but, they are pretty much treated like the good guy from the get go.

Realistically, if you are involved in a self defense shooting, be the one to make the call to the Police. It never hurts for your side of the story to be out there first. Something along the lines of "My name is Bill Smith. A man, with a gun (knife etc) just attacked me and I had to shoot him to defend my life, send the Police and an ambulance. I am (describe yourself and what you are wearing) and I will wait for the Officers here, I have put the gun away."

When the Officers arrive, you may be proned out, they may have you at gunpoint. Remember, the vast majority of shootings we work involves bad people, both the shooter and the shootee. You may be handcuffed until we figure out who is who. If the Shootee has any friends around, they will be very vocal in indicating that you shot their homeboy for no reason. Relax, the same thing happens when we shoot someone too.

You need to get your side of the story to the Police on the scene. Don't run your mouth. Properly ID yourself and give a brief statement of what happened. I usually have to tell people to shut up, there is a lot of adrenalin and, most likely, you won't shut up. Try. Just the basics. "I was walking to my car when this guy walked up to me with a knife, swung it at me and said give me all your money or I will kill you. I was deathly afraid that he was going to kill me and I drew my weapon, pointed it at him, he came at me and I shot him. Then, I called you guys. Sir, could I please not talk anymore? I am really shaken up and I want to talk to my attorney."

We will use our highly developed Spidey Senses and likely figure out that you were the good guy in all this. You will likely not be handcuffed and you will be given a ride to the station to make a statement. They will be happy to wait for your attorney to show up before you make a statement, just like we do. And, you will likely be released to go home.

If you make no statement and refuse to answer any questions, we have nothing to go on except you, with a gun and the dead guy, laying beside you. We will then have to take the word of any idiot on the street that says you killed him in cold blood. Even if we don't believe it.

So, say enough so we have a general idea of what happened, don't be evasive and, shut up after that.
 
Seems like there's been some pretty sound advice in here that is all more or less the same:
1. Be the first to call 911. Make it clear you were attacked and forced to shoot in self-defense.
2. Make an extremely brief, but polite, statement to the responding officers. The shorter, the better, really.
3. Make it clear (again, politely...it really never hurts to be polite in any situation) that you would like to speak to a lawyer before making any further statements.

Funny...sometimes common sense really does work after all. That was already my plan.

Thanks especially to the two LEOs who have chimed in thus far. It was illuminating.
 
maybe where you live
we had a shooting a couple guys were in waffle house at 3 am minding their own biz when 5 guys came in a started some stuff the 2 guys paid up tried to leave they were followed and jumped . one guy made ir to his car recovered his gun and shot 2 guys who charged at him one dead one wounded fight over . the shooter and his buddy fled initially but returned 45 mins later talked to the cops , gasp! without a lawyer! and went home that night it did take him a couple months to get his gun back but they never even put his name in the paper. makes me glad i live here
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Wow, they were just full of FAIL.

Leaving the scene of the shooting AND probably running their mouths too much.

Unless you're about to be overrun, you NEVER leave the scene. If not speaking without benefit of counsel makes you look "guilty", what does FLEEING do?

You dial 911 and report an attack on your person (or someone you defended) and that you needed to use deadly force to defend yourself or them.

You stick around, unless you're in imminent continued danger. If you HAVE to leave, you tell 911 that you HAVE to leave because you have a continued fear for your safety.

When the cops arrive, you do whatever is REQUIRED by law, such as (in Ohio) notifying that you're armed. You supply the cops with the BARE minimum information they need to know to paint yourself as the victim.

You then tell them you have nothing further to say without benefit of counsel. SHUT YOUR MOUTH.

Ayoob has cited examples of people who fled and were prosecuted as suspects.

Could you justifiably shoot somebody, FLEE and be allowed to go home? Maybe. You could be shot with a PG7 grenade and not be killed too. I'm not counting on EITHER one of those things happening in most cases.
 
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Deanimator said:
...Unless you're about to be overrun, you NEVER leave the scene. If not speaking without benefit of counsel makes you look "guilty", what does FLEEING do?...
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+1

Taking off is equated with guilt. Fleeing, unless you absolutely must for your safety, and even then you will want to hope that you can give a good explanation for why you thought you needed to take a powder, is an extremely lousy idea.

Deanimator said:
...Ayoob has cited examples of people who fled and were prosecuted as suspects...
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See his column in the August, 2010, edition of Combat Handguns.
 
It doesn't matter if the cops think you're uncooperative or guilty or shifty or anything else. Your freedom is at stake, why worry about what some cop thinks of you?
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While I am not a fan of saying more than a brief statement (see post #8) you really should care about what the cops think of you. You should care precisely because your freedom is at stake. Remember, they are the ones writing the reports that go to the prosecutor for review. They are going to be the same ones telling the jury all about you.

Let's take a look at two responses when the police arrive. Assume that your shooting is completely justified, or as is more often the case right on the fence to any casual observer, so the only difference is your interaction with the police.

#1) Cops arrive on scene. You assert yourself, rather vocally, that you aren't saying anthing. When asked if you'd like to make a statement, you repeat, "lawyer, lawyer, lawyer" over and over. When asked for your identification card you respond, "I'm not saying anything." You are asked where your firearm is, "You'll need a warrant sir. I'm not saying anything." The cop asks you to stand next to his car while he talks to a couple more witnesses. "Are you telling me to stand by your car against my will?" You get the point.

Detectives arrive on scene and ask that responding officer what happened. "We're still sorting that out but that guy over there is the shooter. He's uncooperative." "Oh yea, I'll keep that in mind." Now the detective proceeds with his thorough investigation, all the while keeping in mind that the guy he is investigating is at minimum, uncooperative. It makes a difference.

#2) Cops arrive on scene. You comply with all of their directions and commands. Officer asks you, "What happened?" You respond, "Sir, I was placed in fear for my life and was forced to shoot in self defense. I am sure you can understand that I am shaken. I will need some time and I would like to contact an attorney before I give any further statement concerning the actions I took in self defense." Officer responds, "I understand, I would do the same thing." He asks you to stand near his car while he speaks to a couple of witnesses. "Of course sir, do you mind if I sit on your bumper since I'm a little shaken up?" "By the way sir, I know you'll need it for evidence. I secured my weapon right inside my front door."

Detectives arrive on scene and ask that responding officer what happened. "We're still sorting that out but that guy over there is the shooter. He's a nice guy but he wants to converse with an attorney." "Cool, it'll take a few days before we get the full story anyway." Detective proceeds with his thorough investigation, keeping in mind that the guy he is investigating is a nice guy and cooperative. It too makes a difference.

Now the officer goes back and writes his report. Believe me when I tell you this, having written literally thousands of police reports. The officer can make you look like a total behind in his report or he can make you look like a total angel. All the while the facts in his report remain exactly the same. He really doesn't care whether you gave a detailed statement on scene or not. While sticking to the facts, personalities do come out in reports.

Fast forward to the hearing with a judge present, or even later at a civil/criminal trial.

Attorney: "Officer Jones, can you tell me about your interaction with Mr. _____ when you arrived on scene?" "He was uncooperative, vague in his answers, told me to go get a warrant and kept repeating 'lawyer'."

or

Attorney: "Officer Jones, can you tell me about your interaction with Mr. _____ when you arrived on scene?" "He was very cooperative and cordial but as could be expected was shaken up by the whole thing, just as I would be if I had to shoot someone, so understandably wasn't able to give a full statement on scene."

Call me crazy, but I care a whole lot about what the cops think of me.
 
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Call me crazy, but I care a whole lot about what the cops think of me.
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Nobody is suggesting you should be rude or assertive in your interaction with the police. However, we all are adults here and should realize that the job of a policeman is to trip you up in any way he can to get a compromising statement out of you, and that includes suggesting your "lack of cooperation" makes you suspicious. They've been trained to do this and use these techniques every day. You are going to be asked numerous questions and often the same questions repeatedly in different words and by different people, all in an attempt to get you to contradict something you already said - and if you talk enough (considering the shattering emotional reaction to the event that has just transpired) you will get confused and contradict yourself.
He doesn't care about you. In his eyes, you're a suspect - nothing more! That's his job and he's doing his job. This is not cop-bashing, it's a job description.

Give them a brief general outline of events and then (politely) refrain from making any further statements until you've spoken with a lawyer. That's the advice of both lawyers and police who have spoken and written and made videos on the subject. Ignore that advice if you like.
 
It's wonderful to sit here behind our computers and postulate about what, if anything, we should say to the police if we are involved in a shooting. The reality is, the average person will be shaken up and likely not thinking particularly clearly.

I appreciate the feedback from the actual police officer above and I'm guessing he would validate the fact that virtually anyone involved in a shooting will not quite be themselves. I'm also guessing that the police take that into account when questioning someone at the scene of a shooting.

With that said, I'm a big fan of the less is more approach - particularly if you're a bit addled or upset. Unless you carry a card in your pocket with the suggestions above I'm pretty confident you won't remember what some unknown person on a random Internet forum suggested you say when you call 911.
 
I watched COPS last night (8pm Eastern on Fox, I think they were in Vegas). Interestingly enough there was a shooting. The guy was being punched in the face and shot the attacker with his Kel-Tec. (I'm not saying this was self defense, more likely some bad dealings gone wrong). However, when the police arrived they asked him why he had a gun on him. His response was that he has a permit to conceal and carry. The officers response was yeah I'm not asking about that I want to know why you had it on you i.e. were you expecting trouble. The guys response was nope I just always have it on me. Another funny part - "What did the guy do after you shot him"..."He stopped punching me in the face". I just thought it was an interesting and timely example related to this discussion.
 
I watched COPS last night (8pm Eastern on Fox, I think they were in Vegas). Interestingly enough there was a shooting. The guy was being punched in the face and shot the attacker with his Kel-Tec. (I'm not saying this was self defense, more likely some bad dealings gone wrong). However, when the police arrived they asked him why he had a gun on him. His response was that he has a permit to conceal and carry. The officers response was yeah I'm not asking about that I want to know why you had it on you i.e. were you expecting trouble. The guys response was nope I just always have it on me. Another funny part - "What did the guy do after you shot him"..."He stopped punching me in the face". I just thought it was an interesting and timely example related to this discussion.
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The bottom line is that you have UTTERLY no control over what kind of cop responds to your emergency, nor do you have ANY control over his reactions to citizens owing firearms or using them to defend themselves. He could be a great, reasonable guy or the lowest form of life since Saddam Hussein stretched a rope under the weight of his own body.

What you DO have control over is what if any statements you make to that cop. The less you talk, the less opportunity you have to say something unintentionally and falsely incriminating. State VERY briefly what happened, that you were in fear for your life and then invoke your right to remain silent until you have benefit of counsel. It doesn't matter if he likes that or not. It's the LAW.

If the cop or the prosecutor want to railroad you, so be it. It's a lot harder to do if YOU don't HELP them with intemperate statements against penal interest. Nobody can use the "excited utterance" against you that you never make.
 
KodiakBeer said:
...Give them a brief general outline of events and then (politely) refrain from making any further statements until you've spoken with a lawyer....
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Deanimator said:
...State VERY briefly what happened, that you were in fear for your life and then invoke your right to remain silent until you have benefit of counsel...
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And that's exactly what a number of people in this thread (and Massad Ayoob) have suggested. And isn't that a lot different from saying absolutely nothing?

  • That person attacked me.
  • I will sign a complaint.
  • There is evidence.
  • There are witnesses.
  • And now I won't say anything else, but you'll have my full cooperation in 24 hours after I've talked with my lawyer.

Mudinyeri said:
...The reality is, the average person will be shaken up and likely not thinking particularly clearly....Unless you carry a card in your pocket with the suggestions above I'm pretty confident you won't remember what ... you say when you call 911....
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Which is why we should be taking the trouble to educate ourselves about how to deal with a self defense situation, including the aftermath, why we should get training and why we need to mentally, as well as physically, prepare.

We should be learning how to handle our guns, and training to develop some proficiency so that if we need to use them we can do so effectively. We should become familiar with the laws related to the use of force in self defense so that we can make appropriate decisions. And we need to learn ways of best managing the aftermath and mentally prepare to do so.

It's mindset, skill set and tool set -- before, during and after.
 
So, everyone here agrees that there should be some calling of your lawyer. How many of you actually have a lawyer? I would venture a guess of somewhere between none and few, because I'm pretty sure if you had one, you'd want to get their advice about this situation.
 
Deep South wrote: "Now if your not guilty of anything, and the police are trying to find the actual person responsible, your probably better off talking to them."

You'll live to see your statements turned against you in court.
 
Deep South wrote: "I agree, but the I want a lawyer, I want a lawyer, I want a lawyer approach definitely has the potential to make you look like a guilty party, or at least uncooperative, even if your neither. I wouldn't be overly vocal without a lawyer, but that doesn't mean say NOTHING, which is what the guy in the vid seems to imply."

Looking guilty or uncooperative will not put the noose around your neck. Making a statement they can turn against you (they are experts at doing so) is what will hang your butt.
 
TechBrute said:
So, everyone here agrees that there should be some calling of your lawyer. How many of you actually have a lawyer? I would venture a guess of somewhere between none and few, because I'm pretty sure if you had one, you'd want to get their advice about this situation.
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I've got the name of a well known criminal defense attorney written down on a slip of paper in my wallet. He and I have never spoken but I can't imagine he'd be turning down a new client who was in a heap of trouble.
 
Kodiakbeer said:
Nobody is suggesting you should be rude or assertive in your interaction with the police. However, we all are adults here and should realize that the job of a policeman is to trip you up in any way he can to get a compromising statement out of you, and that includes suggesting your "lack of cooperation" makes you suspicious.
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You seem wildly misinformed about the duties and responsibilities of a police officer. My job is decidedly NOT to "trip you up in any way I can", rather my job is to ensure public safety, discover the truth, conduct criminal investigations, catch criminals, preserve evidence, protect the innocent, and so on and so forth.

Do you honestly believe that all of us in law enforcement just go to work each day dreaming of arresting people for crimes they didn't commit? Do you think that we simply want to make innocent people trip over their words during times of stress, just so we can throw a case on them? Be realistic here.

To reiterate what I said previously, and what some of my other law enforcement colleagues have also mentioned, we'll need at least something to go on before we can determine what happened at a crime scene. Providing a very concise statement in which you simply identify yourself as the shooter, and state that you shot the person in self defense because they were trying to kill you, will not turn an innocent person into a guilty person. But, you can be darn sure that it might go a long way towards keeping the innocent person out of jail while the situation is being investigated!
 
The Zombie Thread that never dies.....based on a scenario that will statistically never happen.

-funny stuff, "call a lawyer"...99% of folks here are going to call who? The lawyer that handled their divorce of closing? How many have a card in their wallet of a lawyer who handles these matters?

-If you have a painfully obvious situation, do you really think it will be a witch hunt to get you? You need to get out some more...there is no cop worth his salt that will intentionally try to hang you out to dry in a report. Your goal is to avoid mis-statements and excited utterances that can be misconstrued in hindsight. Under great stress we all say some stuff that is inarticulate, to say the least.

-If you shoot your unarmed brother-in-law because you were afraid of the dim mak one-punch kill, by all means, follow the advice in the videos....damage control at this point.
 
The Zombie Thread that never dies.....based on a scenario that will statistically never happen.
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I keep hearing people say that nobody needs to carry a gun for EXACTLY the same reason. When you need a gun... or a lawyer, you're going to need one VERY badly, and you're going to be very much the worse off for not having one.

funny stuff, "call a lawyer"...99% of folks here are going to call who? The lawyer that handled their divorce of closing? How many have a card in their wallet of a lawyer who handles these matters?
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My best friend here is a lawyer, a criminal defense attorney in fact. I talk to him all the time, and about these sorts of issues too.

If you have a painfully obvious situation, do you really think it will be a witch hunt to get you? You need to get out some more...there is no cop worth his salt that will intentionally try to hang you out to dry in a report.
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I don't know whether it's going to be a witch hunt, and have absolutely ZERO control over the actions or motivations of any particular cop or prosecutor. They could be saints or monsters. That's COMPLETELY beyond my control.

What IS in my control is whether I inadvertently hand the monster that I end up with by pure luck of the draw something that he can use against me in furtherance of whatever agenda he might be pursuing.

And YES, there ARE cops and prosecutors who are out to get people. By way of example, I point to the Beachwood cops and prosecutor who arrested, charged and TRIED a guy for "failure to promptly notify" because he obeyed the officers' orders to remain silent for ***51*** seconds while he was being held at gunpoint. He was acquitted at trial. That alone is reason enough for me to avail myself of EVERY protection afforded me by the criminal justice system.
 
coloradokevin said:
...Do you honestly believe that all of us in law enforcement just go to work each day dreaming of arresting people for crimes they didn't commit? Do you think that we simply want to make innocent people trip over their words during times of stress, just so we can throw a case on them? Be realistic here....
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[1] I absolutely do not think that. But I also won't know whether the officer who has responded to my 911 call is one of the great many officers like you, or one of the very few officers who may not be. The odds are very much in my favor, but the stakes for me personally are huge.

[2] In a high stress, self defense event, a person will usually experience one or more artifacts of the "fight-flight" response that will affect his perception of time, distance and the event in general. So immediately after the event is a lousy time for the person involved to start telling his story. He will frequently make mistakes. He will often get things wrong because of his altered perceptions. In addition, few people have been sufficiently inoculated to the type of stress involved to be able, immediately after the event, to maintain proper control of their emotions and to give a good and cogent account of the event.

[3] With regard to an officer involved shooting, See this Force Science Research Center article in at PoliceOne.com (http://www.policeone.com/investigat...ing-officer-involved-shooting-investigations/) and note point 12:

"....In most circumstances, it is best for the officers to ...wait for 24-48 hours after the shooting to give a statement. 'You will not be doing yourself, the DA, the community, your agency or the involved officer any favors by insisting on interviewing the officer right away if he or she is too physically wound up, fatigued or upset to provide a coherent, thorough and accurate statement,' ..."

[4] See also this International Association Of Chiefs of Police "Officer-Involved Shooting Guidelines" (http://theiacp.org/psych_services_section/pdfs/Psych-OfficerInvolvedShooting.pdf) and note point 5 on page 1:

"...5. Ideally, the officer should be provided with some recovery time before detailed interviewing begins. This can range from a few hours to overnight. Officers who have been afforded this opportunity are likely to provide a more coherent and accurate statements....."

[5] But I also want to get the investigation off to a good start and lay a proper foundation. That's why I like Massad Ayood's recommendation:

  • That person attacked me.
  • I will sign a complaint.
  • There is evidence (pointing out evidence).
  • There are witnesses (pointing out witnesses).
  • That's all I'm going to say right now, but you'll have my full cooperation in 24 hours, after I've spoken with my lawyer.
 
It doesn't matter if the cops think you're uncooperative or guilty or shifty or anything else.
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Read JScott's post #33.

Your freedom is at stake, why worry about what some cop thinks of you? They need some form of evidence to present to a DA.
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You also need "some sort of evidence", including supportive witness testimony, or you won't even get a jury instruction allowing a self defense justification, much less acquittal. If the evidence and witnesses disappear from the scene, so much for your freedom.

The more you talk, the more chance you have of giving them some minor inconsistency to charge you.
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Agree. That's why you follow the last item in Fiddletown's advice from Ayoob.

But I also want to get the investigation off to a good start and lay a proper foundation. That's why I like Massad Ayood's recommendation:
That person attacked me.
I will sign a complaint.
There is evidence (pointing out evidence).
There are witnesses (pointing out witnesses).
That's all I'm going to say right now, but you'll have my full cooperation in 24 hours, after I've spoken with my lawyer. ​
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The items leading up to that are to help ensure that you have a chance, and incidentally, to help prevent your being labeled as "the suspect" from the outset.

What people seem for some reason to have a hard time grasping is the difference between a self defense case and criminal cases of other natures. One more time, from Fiddletown:

Pleading self defense is very different from the usual defense strategy in a criminal case. The usual criminal defense is basically "I wasn't there, I didn't do it, you can't prove that I did it." This essentially involves attacking the prosecution's evidence to create a reasonable doubt.

But the defense of self defense is basically "I did it, but I was legally justified." That involves affirmatively introducing evidence to support your claim.
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For me, that's not all that hard to understand.

Your attorney cannot introduce evidence that he does not have.

If the witnesses slip into the community at large without having been seen or identified, or if evidence is not seen and later disappears, your defense could be very difficult indeed. If it initially appears to the investigating officers that you are the perp, it may be quite natural for them to inadvertently fail to notice evidence that is not consistent with that assumption.

You don't want to say anything other than what Ayoob recommends, but unless the evidence shows a really clear cut case, such as a couple of armed men having crashed into your bedroom at night, you really need for things to start of on the right foot and provide you with a proper foundation.
 
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