Down the reloading rabbit hole

[mofosheee]

This has been beat to death over the years. I'm new to reloading rifle and suffering from information overload. Reading and talking with people ad nauseam opens up more questions.
Looking for a "one stop shop" reloading manual recommendation please. I have one 20" AR is chambered in 5.56 and the other, a JP Wylde .223 rifle.

I have both .223 Remmington and military 5.56 brass range brass and about 1K rounds of .224 unloaded bullets.
Do people reload military brass? One person I know states that he scrapps military.
Will a 5.56 die "force" .223 brass into 5.56" dimension?
Would resized range brass be suitable to reload in .224?

The Hornady bullet comparator and OAL gauge tool looks essential. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pLfyWJrc9A

Any and all advice appreciated. Thank you!

 

[jmorris]

There are a number of tools that might make life easier but not necessarily essential.

If you have a rifle and fired brass, you can size them to fit back in it, like this.

Setting size die for AR type rifle.

www.youtube.com

If the case grows too long upon sizing it, it would then be essential to trim it back to proper length but there are a number of ways to accomplish the task.

Case lube is needed for bottle neck rifle rounds and I use imperial or Hornady Unique unless I am using a progressive press.

 

[N555]

I reload a lot of military brass.
It's not the best but it works.
Scraping it is stupid.
223 and 5.56 case dimensions are the same.
The difference between a 5.56, 223rem and 223wyld is the free bore diameter and length in the chamber.
The difference between 223 and 5.56 ammo is the 5.56 is usually loaded hotter.
To me if the brass head stamp is 223 or 5.56 is irrelevant. I do try to load my 223 loads in brass that says 223 and load my 5.56 in 5.56brass or military head stamp so when I find one loan round rolling around I can figure out what it might be.
For example if the brass says "223rem" it's probably loaded with 55gr fmj with about a start load of H322. It's definitely loaded well within 223rem pressure.

If it says "5.56" or LC on the head stamp it's probably 62gr or heavier bullet and about a max load load from the 5.56 load table.

 

[Otto]

Before you enter the the rabbit hole, you should understand the differences between 223, 556 and Wylde. And no, the Hornady comparator is not essential in loading any of the three.

.223 Wylde chamber - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

This has been beat to death over the years. I'm new to reloading rifle and suffering from information overload. Reading and talking with people ad nauseam opens up more questions.
Looking for a "one stop shop" reloading manual recommendation please. I have one 20" AR is chambered in 5.56 and the other, a JP Wylde .223 rifle.

I have both .223 Remmington and military 5.56 brass range brass and about 1K rounds of .224 unloaded bullets.
Do people reload military brass? One person I know states that he scrapps military.
Will a 5.56 die "force" .223 brass into 5.56" dimension?
Would resized range brass be suitable to reload in .224?

The Hornady bullet comparator and OAL gauge tool looks essential. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pLfyWJrc9A

Any and all advice appreciated. Thank you!

If I were looking for a one-stop manual I’d go here:

Our Manuals

Quick and easy reloading manuals for different calibers.

www.loadbooks.com

 

[d31tc]

The Hornady bullet comparator and OAL gauge tool looks essential. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pLfyWJrc9A

Not an expert here as there are others that have been reloading far longer than myself. An OAL gauge isn't necessary because a decent caliper can measure your case length and OAL length reasonably well. Your OAL on an AR would be limited by the magazine and you can use a caliper to check the OAL from tip of the bullet to the case head. The Hornady OAL gauge would be helpful if you want to have the bullet set just of the rifle lands, but in an AR, you aren't going to do that, again because the magazine would limit your OAL.

 

[mdi]

Slow down! Ask 10 reloaders a question, especially on a forum, and you are likely to get 20 different answers. K.I.S.S. and limit your info sources. I'd recommend, for basic reloading, a copy of The ABCs of Reloading. Good basic start on all aspects of reloading. Then a couple manuals; a Lyman 51st Edition for both jacketed and lead bullets and a manual by the bullet manufacturer you choose (Hornady bullets = Hornady manual).

My rifle reloading has slowed down considerably, but military once fired brass was very good (my Garand and my Ruger 308 have eaten thousands of mil spec brass which only needed primer crimps removed, another subject with a half dozen different opinions, minimum). I have also used 38 Special, 45 ACP and 9mm military brass with no more problems than with commercial manufactured brass..

Reloading can get really personal and everything that can be done is expressed daily on forums and web sites. (I was fortunate that I started reloading waaay pre web. Used my Lee Loader data sheet and visited the local library often, Paid little attention to the Gun Shop Gurus). I also recommend staying away from youtube. There are some good sites, but unless you already have a good handle on reloading you can't tell the trash from the truth..

.Go slow. Double check everything. Most important, have fun

 

[AJC1]

I feel your best option is to get a mentor who reloads near you. Each reloader builds a unique process based on their experence, and failures. Each reliaders process does work, but the processes can't nessisarily be chopped up and combined. As an example I decap, wash, size expand powder, and seat bullets. Because I use Redding sizing wax I don't have multiple wash cycles like some and my pockets are clean because I deprime first. My process would not work well if a spray on lube was used....

 

[LiveLife]

I'm new to reloading rifle and suffering from information overload.

It's OK to be human. Join the club of "imperfect humans"

I have one 20" AR is chambered in 5.56 and the other, a JP Wylde .223 rifle

While I have built several 18" .223 Wylde heavy barrel ARs that produced around MOA, I recently built 20" fluted barrel in .223 Wylde to do load testing with RMR 69/75 gr BTHP and hoping for better than MOA groups.

.223 Remmington and military 5.56 brass range brass

Do people reload military brass? One person I know states that he scrapps military.

I do. Likely that "One person" scrapped military brass because primer pockets are crimped and crimp needs to be cut with countersink bit or swaged using tool like Dillon Super Swage (I use C-H swage tool).

Will a 5.56 die "force" .223 brass into 5.56" dimension?

There is no 5.56 NATO die set, just .223 Remington die set. And .223 sizer will resize 5.56 brass into .223 dimension.

Would resized range brass be suitable to reload in .224?

Yes.

Hornady bullet comparator and OAL gauge tool looks essential.

Not really. If your finished rounds will fit the magazine and chamber from the magazine, you are good to go.

 

[DMW1116]

Get yourself a reloading manual. The one published by Ramshot/Western Powders is available free on-line. Then read it through a couple of times. If you still have questions, get a Lyman reloading manual. You can reload with a press, case lube, caliber specific die set, scale, calipers, priming tool, trimmer, deburring tool, powder and primers. 223/5.56 will also require a primer crimp removal tool or at least a good method. Military cases have the primers crimped in place and cannot be reprimed until the crimp is removed.

 

[N555]

Before you enter the the rabbit hole, you should understand the differences between 223, 556 and Wylde. And no, the Hornady comparator is not essential in loading any of the three.

.223 Wylde chamber - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Truth. I started loading 223 in 1999 and never used a comparator.

 

[Blue68f100]

This has been beat to death over the years. I'm new to reloading rifle and suffering from information overload. Reading and talking with people ad nauseam opens up more questions.
Looking for a "one stop shop" reloading manual recommendation please. I have one 20" AR is chambered in 5.56 and the other, a JP Wylde .223 rifle.

I have both .223 Remmington and military 5.56 brass range brass and about 1K rounds of .224 unloaded bullets.
Do people reload military brass? One person I know states that he scrapps military.
Will a 5.56 die "force" .223 brass into 5.56" dimension?
Would resized range brass be suitable to reload in .224?

The Hornady bullet comparator and OAL gauge tool looks essential. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pLfyWJrc9A

Any and all advice appreciated. Thank you!

Your pretty new to THR by your post count, so Welcome to THR ....

5.56 Military ammo has a crimped primer pocket that needs to be removed prior to seating a primers. The normal primer for these are CCI #41, Rem 7 1/2 and maybe a few others. You can use your chamber to determine the max OAL for your gun. Normally your restricted to mag length too but not necessary. Learn how to set your sizing die up so your only pushing your shoulder back 0.002"-0.003", more over works the brass, less may cause feeding problems. Some Mil brass is heaver wall and will require a lower charge than commercial bass. So I would recommend keeping your brass separated by head stamp till you determine the internal volume is the same. If once fired you will probably need to trim the brass after sizing. Now it the brass was fired in a machine gun (MG), the brass will be over stretched causing all kind of problems.

Welcome to the madness we call reloading, Hand loading.

 

[AJC1]

Your pretty new to THR by your post count, so Welcome to THR ....

5.56 Military ammo has a crimped primer pocket that needs to be removed prior to seating a primers. The normal primer for these are CCI #41, Rem 7 1/2 and maybe a few others. You can use your chamber to determine the max OAL for your gun. Normally your restricted to mag length too but not necessary. Learn how to set your sizing die up so your only pushing your shoulder back 0.002"-0.003", more over works the brass, less may cause feeding problems. Some Mil brass is heaver wall and will require a lower charge than commercial bass. So I would recommend keeping your brass separated by head stamp till you determine the internal volume is the same. If once fired you will probably need to trim the brass after sizing. Now it the brass was fired in a machine gun (MG), the brass will be over stretched causing all kind of problems.

Welcome to the madness we call reloading, Hand loading.

I see the case volume reduction in 308 but not 556...

 

[N555]

I save the LC brass for my possibly hot 69gr 5.56 loads.

 

[MEHavey]

Do people reload military brass?

Yes. Standard fare ... all the time

Will a 5.56 die "force" .223 brass into 5.56" dimension?

There is no difference. *
Case-wise 5.56 <=> 223

Would resized range brass be suitable to reload in .224?

Again, "223 Rem" <=> 5.56 NATO ==> .224 bullets

As far as "pressure" goes, Load to standard SAAMI 55,000psi ** Max from the manuals . . . .
either the 223 or the 5.56 OAL/data (Which is why God invented the Wylde chamber/throat)



* If you happen to wind up with machine gun-fired brass, `might need a small-base sizing die for first reloading.
After that 1st sizing/firing in your own civilian AR, standard dies work thereafter.

** Which for all intents & purposes is same as CIP pressure listed as 62,000psi (different measurement protocols)

 

[NMexJim]

The OAL and Comparator tool would be more used in loading precision ammunition that is used in a precision rifle. Unless an AR is built to precision specs with heavy barrels (HBAR), you really won’t be able to gain that much in accuracy. Now, that’s not saying that you won’t see an improvement - most any effort towards consistent reloads is rewarded to some degree.

Semi-auto rifles generally benefit from full length sizing to ensure smooth feeding. Controlling case shoulder bump may not gain much in a standard AR, and may instead cause you some feed issues. Bullet seating off of bullet ogive rather than bullet tip is always worth the effort, but then brass quality and the degree of brass prep also must be improved to get real results.

I would imply from your post that you might be better served building good reloading skills rather than trying for sub-moa groups which can be frustrating and expensive. For instance, de-priming and swedging or trimming out the primer crimp in military brass. After you get the hang of that, you may or may not think it worth the effort. It’s all a learning curve.

I shoot a lot of Lake City brass in my Colt. Really a pretty stock LEO M4. I don’t expect bug holes nor do I put a lot of effort looking for them. I’m careful in loading for consistency and am happy with my results. If I wanted a precision AR, then I would put the money and effort into both the rifle and loading precision ammo.

Details on your rifles and loads always help folks give you accurate information. Lets us know you problems and successes. There are quite a few accomplished AR folks on here.

 

[Theinkman]

I agree the best learning tool is to find someone else who handloads and ask them if they could help you. Reloading is simply four steps:

1. Prep brass to be reloaded
2. Seat a new primer into the brass case.
3. Charge with powder of your choice
4. Seat bullets

It's when we experienced handloaders start talking online is where a new person can get confused. We have learned over time how to best complete each step in a manner that works out the best for each of us and our end use. And some of those processes and the different ways to complete each step can be confusing to a new loader who is not yet familiar with the basics steps.

Most handloaders are very willing to help a newby especially here. You will get your questions answered here, however it can be a rabbit hole too. Keep it simple while you're learning. You can complicate it plenty as you become more experienced.

Find a mentor is the best advice I can give.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Maybe I read it wrong but my impression was that the OP has been reloading pistol cartridges for a while - not long but a few months at least - and this was his first foray into rifle (bottleneck cartridges) reloading.
I agree with finding an experienced reloader to act as a mentor but be careful. Make sure it’s someone whose reload you would want to shoot. There’s no better way to learn bad habits than to be taught them by a trusted tutor.

 

[mofosheee]

My appreciation goes out to everyone who responded!
The details and opinions received from your responses is valuable and allows me to sort out and organize the fragmented information that I have.
I've purchased the Lyman 51 manual and the; http://www.loadbooks.com/untitled.html. While, I prefer to avoid Youtube, but I'd like to line up with at least one. Which?
Still working on sorting things out. At the moment I wrapped around the axel over, which die set? I ask that no one be offended by my question.....I'm confused.

Someone above stated (thank you)
"There is no 5.56 NATO die set, just .223 Remington die set. And .223 sizer will resize 5.56 brass into .223 dimension"
then another someone states (thank you)
"223 and 5.56 case dimensions are the same.
The difference between a 5.56, 223rem and 223wyld is the free bore diameter and length in the chamber."
Would the free bore diameter also be referred to as the ID (inside diameter) of the case opening?

Thanks to all!

 

[Blue68f100]

The only dies you will find are 223R which is the same as 5.56. Like said most any mfg die will work. The differences is in features and finish. The ones you posted will work just fine, though I have not found a need for SB. None of my match barrels require it.

The free bore is the area in front of the cartridge mouth before the rifling starts. The Wydle chamber has additional free bore (over a 223/R, the angle is different too) the reason it can take 5.56 ammo. This additional space allows the bullet to get a running start to prevent pressure spikes. The Wydle chamber was designed so a shooter could shoot the larger longer bullets, > 80 gr.

 

[mofosheee]

The free bore is the area in front of the cartridge mouth before the rifling starts. The Wydle chamber has additional free bore (over a 223/R, the angle is different too) the reason it can take 5.56 ammo. This additional space allows the bullet to get a running start to prevent pressure spikes. The Wydle chamber was designed so a shooter could shoot the larger longer bullets, > 80 gr.

I get wrapped up in details. Thank you for tightening me up on the definition; "free bore".
Please refer to the attachment. People repeatedly write that ........... .223 and 5.56 cases are the same. According to the attachment they are not. The freebore length of the 5.56 is longer and there's an angular difference between the 5.56 and .223. I would think that the angles of the a .223 or 5.56 cases would match that of the angles cut in the barrels. I assumed that the the forming dies would match that of the case as per the attachment.

It was my false understanding that the differences between the cases were washed out by the dies. I have been corrected to understand that reforming dies reshape the brass back to it's original shape and coutours. But what about the angle differences?
I have learned here that the primary differences between the 5.56 and .223 is that the 5.56 case is somewhat smaller (due to thickness) and holds less powder, operates at a higher pressure and that the primer crimp needs to be removed.
That LC brass is better suited for bullets in excess of 62gr .223 brass better suited for 55gr. Best practice is to separate brass by headstamps.

Here's where I ask the stupid question.
So am I correct to understand that if I load a .224 round in a 5.56 case I have a 5.56 round?
and
if I load a .224 round in a .223 case I have a .223 round?

Thank you

 

[DMW1116]

The brass is the same outside dimension. Some military brass has thicker walls and this lower case capacity, but based on @AJC1 ’s measurements above it is often the same. The difference is in the chambers and the cutters used to make them. There is a distance between the case mouth and the beginning of the rifling in the barrel. A 5.56 chamber has a longer distance, called free bore. 5.56 loads are usually higher velocity than 223 loads and have more powder to reflect that. Maximum powder charge in 223 using H335 powder is 22.9 grains for a 62 grain full metal jacket bullet from Hornady load data. The maximum for a 5.56 with the same powder and bullet is 25.4 grains of powder.

 

[MEHavey]

So am I correct to understand that if I load a .224 round in a 5.56 case I have a 5.56 round?
and
if I load a .224 round in a .223 case I have a .223 round?

No.
There is no 'NATO' round vs '223' round at that point.

No matter the "case" nomenclature, they are the same...
differing only in how far out you load the bullet itself to
fit the chamber ... and w/ Wylde it is the same.

 

[AJC1]

The brass is the same outside dimension. Some military brass has thicker walls and this lower case capacity, but based on @AJC1 ’s measurements above it is often the same. The difference is in the chambers and the cutters used to make them. There is a distance between the case mouth and the beginning of the rifling in the barrel. A 5.56 chamber has a longer distance, called free bore. 5.56 loads are usually higher velocity than 223 loads and have more powder to reflect that. Maximum powder charge in 223 using H335 powder is 22.9 grains for a 62 grain full metal jacket bullet from Hornady load data. The maximum for a 5.56 with the same powder and bullet is 25.4 grains of powder.

That extra 10k of chamber pressure spec share helps... honestly those weren't my measurements, I got them from 6mmbr.com. I do collect that kind of data for 30-30 because that information seems unavailable and I believe it helps our community.

 

[Blue68f100]

I get wrapped up in details. Thank you for tightening me up on the definition; "free bore".
Please refer to the attachment. People repeatedly write that ........... .223 and 5.56 cases are the same. According to the attachment they are not. The freebore length of the 5.56 is longer and there's an angular difference between the 5.56 and .223. I would think that the angles of the a .223 or 5.56 cases would match that of the angles cut in the barrels. I assumed that the the forming dies would match that of the case as per the attachment.

It was my false understanding that the differences between the cases were washed out by the dies. I have been corrected to understand that reforming dies reshape the brass back to it's original shape and coutours. But what about the angle differences?
I have learned here that the primary differences between the 5.56 and .223 is that the 5.56 case is somewhat smaller (due to thickness) and holds less powder, operates at a higher pressure and that the primer crimp needs to be removed.
That LC brass is better suited for bullets in excess of 62gr .223 brass better suited for 55gr. Best practice is to separate brass by headstamps.

Here's where I ask the stupid question.
So am I correct to understand that if I load a .224 round in a 5.56 case I have a 5.56 round?
and
if I load a .224 round in a .223 case I have a .223 round?

Thank you

Your getting hung up on Chamber differences not the cartridge that fits into the chamber. There are a bunch of different chambers used in 223R. But all will take the same spec brass with the only differences is what's required for OAL due to bullet length and shape.

Chambers are different. The specs on the brass (outer dimensions) is almost identical and are interchangeability by all practical purposes. The load you work up is based on the components you chose for your gun. A different gun may require a different setup even the same model of the assembly line right next to each other.

5.56 spec are at a higher pressure than 223R. ~ 55k vs ~62k they can be loaded in any marking on the brass. So a 223R could have 5.56 specs (pressure). Loading higher increases wear and tear on your gun. Brass life is shortened. With gas operated guns you have to control the pressure at the gas port on the barrel. This is what drives the BCG (bolt) rearward. If running at the right pressure the brass will eject in the 3:00 to 5:00 direction. Too fast and it bounces off the deflector knocking it forward. Also will stretch the brass more causing case head separation. There are may ways to control this, heavier bolts, adj gas blocks are just a few ways to do it.