DPMS AR-15 or S&W M&P 15?

[wgp]

I have both. I like both. Both work fine. My DPMS might be a bit more accurate, as it has the heavy stainless barrel, but I like the M4 configuration of my M&P. I bought the DPMS a few years ago on advice of a local gun shop with several brands on the shelf. When I wanted another I asked the same shop, again with several brands on the shelf, and this time he thought the Smith might be a bit "better" rifle, so I went that way.
Obvious solution is to buy both.

 

[devildog32713]

DPMS has been doing it a lot longer, I trust their expirence.

 

[shadowalker]

I recommend taking a look at the chart, spending some time on m4carbine.net or ar15.com and taking some time to educate yourself about the features and what they mean.

DPMS builds fine target rifles / range toys but if you intend to use it as a fighting rifle the S&W M&P is a far better choice.

There are lots of reasons but they've been got into a lot the last few days and it'd just be rehashing the same ground.

 

[GPWASR10]

Yes shadowwalker it has been done a 1000 times; DPMS guys saying they are happy with their very accurate and reliable "Range toys", and "Charters" telling us how bad they are, offering up opinion by the bucketful, but not a whole lot of sources or actual failure data of the products they are so passionate about (Not that I have the data either way).

But, like I said earlier, you will like your new rifle be it a Smith, or a Panther and will probably never wear out either one.


However, I have said it a hundred times... if you really want an AR you will love...ROLL YOUR OWN. I did (using a lot of DPMS components) and it's (to me at least) perfect.

But should be so foolish that you buy the Panther, you can spend the rest of the coin you saved on Ammo for it ;-)... (no pressure)

 

[kwelz]

So wait. Rob has spent countless hours collecting data and compiling the chart. Numerous Instructors will comment on failure rates to anyone who asks. And our own Mr. Roberts has posted his own personal experiences. And you claim there is no data?

 

[possum]

So wait. Rob has spent countless hours collecting data and compiling the chart. Numerous Instructors will comment on failure rates to anyone who asks. And our own Mr. Roberts has posted his own personal experiences. And you claim there is no data?

sometimes i wonder why i even reply to these kinda threads, to some people it doesn't matter what you have seen for yourslef, what you have experienced, or top tier instructors say on a daily basis and see come through thier class. It seems that if it didn't happen to the guy making the post then it isn't true. and generally i would assume the ones that say that they love them and they run good etc have em still, and you know no one likes to be told that they could have done better, and maybe they get a little offended.

as well you have to look at the majority of ar owners and shooters. a very small precentage of gun owners ever attend training. very few people have thier ar for more than fun, and "target shooting". For the ones that do and the ones that have been around a while they know what works and what dosen't and even though that is what we are trying to get across to people, it just doesn't seem to sink in to those kinda folks.

there is a huge difference between the guy that has the 100% reliable, ar that puts a couple boxes of ammo through it a month, and that of someone that trains like thier life depends on it, and runs thier stuff hard.(read my sig line)

I don't want to name drop, but there are several good instructors, that will suggest s&w.

 

[GPWASR10]

So wait. Rob has spent countless hours collecting data and compiling the chart. Numerous Instructors will comment on failure rates to anyone who asks. And our own Mr. Roberts has posted his own personal experiences. And you claim there is no data?

No I am not "claiming" cause "claiming" would imply that such a test has been done and that someone has access to the results and that I simply have not seen them yet.

I am saying "that there is no data, end of discussion". I say this because there is no actual data on AR-15 failure rates from the different builders. I work in a lab that does nothing but test products for both civilian and military hardware and I can tell you that unless such a test has been conducted under controlled conditions with random samples of every manufacturer... or second best being, somehow compiling a list of failures from the manufacturers of the defects that they see most, and what percentage of their rifles get returned for warranty service, then all you really have is very circumstantial evidence and opinion.

Like I said before...
If DPMS is the second largest builder of AR-15's in the world and they build an estimated 60,000 rifles in a year and has a 1% failure rate. And LMT builds 10000 rifles in a year and also has a 1% failure rate. Then YES you are going to hear about many more Panther AR's with problems on the gun Boards then LMT problems, because there are MANY MANY times more DPMS AR's then LMT AR's (not to mention Bushmaster), and even if it seems like you hear more things about them failing, the reality is that they are equally likely to fail.

But since NO ONE has actually shown up with verifiable product failure rates of any of these brands, we simply don't know what the real world failure rates are, and it seems silly to pretend that we do. And you would be hard pressed to find any professional doing product testing that would make any judgments without actually seeing some hard data. And I am sure that Mr. Roberts is a good study of the AR-15, but I doubt he does a whole lotta lab time on these guns.

The chart is a fantastic piece of work, and it took a lot of time to compile, and it does a great job of showing what has been done to these rifles, and what has not. But what it does not show is weather or not these features actually effect the chances of a failure. In short, I think it mostly shows what features you need on a gun for it to closely mimic what our military uses in the field for the hobbyist who is interested in such things.

So, for the last time, does anyone here have any actual testing data on AR manufacturers products? Anyone? Cause I would really like to know, hell for all I know DPMS could have the highest failure rate of any rifle builder known, that has not been my experience, but I have not seen all that many examples (25-30 rifles... maybe?) compared to what is out there.

 

[possum]

i would post links about DPMS straight from www.getoffthex.com however you have to be a member and i am sure that you will not want to spend the time that it would take to sign up, use the search function over there, and see all the proof that one woudl need.

what you suggest, do you know how much that would cost? and who wants to spend that kinda money to prove what they already know to be true?

additionally the instructors out there that see these kinda ar's come through thier classes over the years and courses, are gonna see far more examples of the makers rifles than you would be able to gather to do one of these "scientific" test that you seem to want to have done.

how about this, you buy the guns and do the testing, and prove to the us that DPMS is good to go. since there is no "scientific" proof that they aren't good.

 

[GPWASR10]

Possum, there was no data on that site, no "proof", unless you can link me to it. That being said, thanks for the info on the new site, it looks interesting! And no, I'm sorry but you don't "know" until you actually "test". Regardless of cost without that data, you AND me are somewhat less then an expert.

Unless you can say...

GP, you huge ass, according to www.AR-15phailures.com/DPMSblows/axp?reasons/failuredata, DPMS has a 2.7% failure rate, were LMT has a stellar .73%, now stop being such a wussbag and go get yourself a real shootin' rifle.

...then you don't know. this is not really up for debate, I am not saying DPMS is better or worse then Brand X, what I am saying is that no one actually knows and until we do, our "knowledge" is mostly based on opinion.

If you want my personal experience... I shoot the piss out of my DPMS 20", putting an ass load of rounds down the pipe in a single session and have not had ONE failure that was rifle related, I would bring it to a Carbine course without regrets, and my experience in beating this poor pipe into the ground tells me that it will very likely be there in the end. All of my AR shooting buddies shoot either DPMS, Bushmaster, an M&P and a few RR's.

Honestly, they have all ran fine.

Anyways, this is going to be pointless and get this guys thread locked, I still say go DPMS, but you will not be displeased either way in the long run.

Just for gods sake, buy an EBR!

 

[SHvar]

There are very few if any real differences between S&W and DPMS, sure the standard non chrome lined barrel, for $30 more its now Chrome lined. Aside from that the barrel steel is the same, etc etc.
Look closely at both, check the individual rifle.
I have a DPMS, its not an "M-4 model" so the chart does not come close to being accurate, in fact much of whats mentioned in the chart is inaccurate concerning my DPMS rifle.
I have a Bushmaster and it is an M4 variation with POF designs and a gas piston, most of the chart is inaccurate for that model also.
Also Ive heard of many who use DPMS in carbine course with none ever having a single problem. I think user error sums up much of what happens with 1 or 2 examples that someone hears about having problems with.
I personally have put a few thousand rds in the past year through my DPMS and it still shows no more wear, and is extremely accurate.
The M&P looks and feels nice, and has some nice features, for that price difference in the models Ive looked at the M&P usually has some extra accessories (folding rear sights, quadrail etc, depends on the model).
Heck, I put a few hundred rds in a single trip to the range through my rifles, add that up, thats alot per year.

 

[Patriotme]

I've had no experience with the DPMS but I've got a S&W MP15 MOE and really like the gun. The trigger is better than that of my Bushmaster and the S&W has been a great gun. I believe some of the early models had troubles with Pmags but that is not the case with the later models. I've used 5 different brands of mags in mine with no trouble. I usually just use Pmags since I've got a bunch of them.
I'll fess up and admit that I shoot the cheap stuff more often than not. The S&W (mine at least) prefers 55 gr ammo over 62 gr. I shoot brass cartridges every once in a while but I usally just shoot Silver Bear, Brown Bear, Tula and yes....even Wolf. I've put about 700 rnds through the gun with no problems.
Accuracy is pretty good. I'm shooting cheap ammo and still getting decent groups. I'm more of a pistol shooter and I'm sure the S&W will shoot better than I will even if I break down and buy some higher quality ammo.
I'd recommend it. Is it better than the DPMS...I don't know. I'm not going to trash another brand just because I don't own it. They seem to make a quality product and the owners seem satisfied.

 

[WarMachine]

In short, I think it mostly shows what features you need on a gun for it to closely mimic what our military uses in the field for the hobbyist who is interested in such things.

There are many features on carbines that users who depend on their rifle to protect their lives want, not just "hobbyists". Those features were included for specific reasons. Whether hobbyists want them is irrelevant to their original purpose.

 

[tehweej]

Great info guys! Thanks for all the input. I have thought about rolling my own, but decided on buying a complete to start. Down the road I will more than likely start from scratch and build one to my personal preferences.

The version of the Smith that I am looking at is the basic model w/detachable carrying handle, fixed front sight, 6-pos stock. I also might be getting a free Vortex StrikeFire Red/Green dot for free

 

[Kingofthehill]

I have a S&W MOE edition AR and I have a DPMS. The S&W is a nicer gun. Tolerences, quality, finish, fit... its just so SMOOTH. The DPMS is a fantastic rifle too though.

You really can't go wrong with either. But in my opinion, you could do a little more RIGHT with the M&P.

I was in your same shoes 6 months ago when i bought my first AR... I almost built my own right off the bat but i don't have anyone around me that could help or give me advice if i had a problem.

Im very very glad i bought my first one complete and i am im process of building my Dream AR as i have learned an awful lot since buying my complete rifle.

Best of luck

JOe

 

[GPWASR10]

Just make sure to post pics of your build when it is complete, Joe. The one thing that has really pushed me towards AR's over AK's over the past couple years is how people personalize their rifles and what their idea of the "right" configuration is.

 

[Va Shooter]

This is the DPMS AP-4A "NOTE A" The Chart list the "C" version

DPMS AP4A Panther Carbine 16" Length w/A2 flash hider (birdcage). 4140 chrome-moly steel AP4 style contour Manganese Phosphated 6 grooves, righthand1x9 twist, button rifled.
Chamber: 5.56x45mm.
Method of Operation:
Gas operated rotating bolt.
Bolt & Carrier: 8620 steel bolt carrier, heat treated and plated per Mil Spec Phosphated steel bolt, heat treated and plated per Mil Spec.
Sights: A2 front sight Assembly.
Upper Receiver: A3 Style with detachable carrying handle and and rear sight adjustable for windage and elevation, FDust cover. Shell deflector. Round forward assist. Right hand ejection.
Lower Receiver: Forged 7075-T6 aircraft aluminum alloy Hard coat anodized per Mil Spec and Teflon coated black. Semi-auto trigger group. Aluminum trigger guard. Aluminum magazine release button.
Stock: AP4 - 6 position, telescoping fiber reinforced polymer.
Handguards: GlacierGuards™. Oval, Carbine length. Aluminum Delta Ring. This rifle comes with 2-30 round magazines, 1 nylon web sling and 1 cleaning kit.

Again I'm very happy playing keyboard commando, and pray all I'll ever need it for is taking out paper zombies and bad guy water jugs. Take care of whatever AR-15 you get and it will take care of you. If not buy a AK-47

 

[SpeedAKL]

Get the S&W; the M&P-15 has earned a good reputation in the marketplace as a solid, reliable carbine,

 

[grilledcheese]

I like my M&P. Got it from CDNN for $800, and it came with (mostly cheap) extras. I think the sale is still going on. The only extra I kept was the quad rail.





Jeffrey

 

[againstthagrane]

my dpms ap4 has m4 ramps and a PROPERLY staked key. i bought it in 2007 before the obama scare kicked into full swing. $960 out the door at the ft. worth gunshow brand new. it also came with the $300 factory digital camo finish so i think they may snazz the internals on that particular model.

 

[SpeedAKL]

my dpms ap4 has m4 ramps and a PROPERLY staked key. i bought it in 2007 before the obama scare kicked into full swing. $960 out the door at the ft. worth gunshow brand new. it also came with the $300 factory digital camo finish so i think they may snazz the internals on that particular model.

Interesting. That tells me they at least have the capability to put those features in a rifle. I don't understand why they don't just baseline those features in and be done with it; staking the gas key in particular is an inexpensive exercise.

 

[possum]

staking the gas key in particular is an inexpensive exercise.

yes it is, and one thing that i wouldn't worry about if i got an ar that didn't have it doen right at the factory it is a quick and easy fix.

 

[CMP]

my dpms ap4 has m4 ramps and a PROPERLY staked key. i bought it in 2007 before the obama scare kicked into full swing. $960 out the door at the ft. worth gunshow brand new. it also came with the $300 factory digital camo finish so i think they may snazz the internals on that particular model.

Mine also has m4 ramps and a properly staked key I bought mine in two places though, my upper from CTD in 2007 before they started screwing people over for $399 and the lower from Rguns for $275 with a CTR stock on it right before obama was elected. If I would of waited 1 more day I would of had to wait a few months to buy a lower at a higher price! Oh and I love it!

 

[GPWASR10]

My 20" has a properly staked key (After viewing it on the work bench), and of course rifle feed ramps.