dragoon

[pohill]

It's the little that made me wonder.
Yeah, the Colt Colt is amazing, it really is. I'm looking at a cased Colt Colt 1851 Navy .36 (with accessories) for $415. I can't figure out why it's so cheap (inexpensive). I keep hoping it will sell, so I won't be tempted, but it was still there yesterday...

 

[mike101]

Buy it. Call it a Christmas present to yourself. I strongly believe that everyone should get themelves a Christmas present. That's a good price for a Colt Colt.

Do you know if it's a 2nd or 3rd generation ?

Also, speaking of conversions, they make really beautiful ones at www.armsportllc.com. Take a look, everybody.

 

[pohill]

Not sure if it's a 2nd or 3rd generation. It's unfired and was unturned until I picked it up. ooops

 

[parmamoon]

Thanks guys. I went back down to Cabela's in Dundee yesterday and placed an order to place an order ( no thats not a typo ) for a Uberti 3rd or 2nd model Dragoon. They are supposed to call me sometime in the future with price and availability. I have no doubt that the Colts are better, but I have to use up some gift certs. and it's not like anybody called the Ubertis a FORD or anything.


.

 

[mike101]

That's OK Pohill

Because you're going to fire the hell out of it when you buy it, right?

 

[Plink]

Now that it's no longer unturned, I think that they should offer you a discount on it!

 

[pohill]

This store in Maine has some pretty good deals. They have new Uberti Walkers & Dragoons for under $300, used Rugers for $310 and up, a bunch of Colt Colts (2nd generation and Signature Series), Remingtons, Starrs and even some antique original revolvers. Sometimes I think they don't know what they have - they sold me a used Spiller & Burr for $120, but they advertised it as a Whitney copy in brass (which is what the S & B was originally). Interesting place.
http://www.ktpguns.com/interior.php/pid/28

 

[sjohns]

Hi Mike! Hi Folks...
Actually, if you can use a lathe, I have been thinking that the 44 cylinder can be cut down to the right length and the chambers can be reamed to 45 colt. (or maybe a 45 Schofield sized cimarron cylinder could be reamed out.) All I am saying is that they can conceivably be home grown.
Mec or Old Dragoon would know if this could really be accomplished.
I have some cimarron and uberti parts here that I have considering turning into a a conversion on an 1860. I still won't get to it for awhile, but I am gathering parts. I am going to have to grind the heck out of this frame for it. But it came to me as a rattle gun anyway. (loose cylinder pin)
Cimarron made that new 1860 Transition Model. I had the bucks before Xmas and couldn't find one. One local shop said they could order one but didn't have a catalog. So I directed them to Cimarron's website and of course they wanted to charge me top dollar. I told them: I guess I won't be buying it here then. The same people that charged me 75.00 to transfer a Cimarron 44. Jerks. I thought they'd help a repeat customer. Especially since they stung me so hard the first time.

I have a signature series 60. I like it but don't shoot it. I cost me 500.00 plus postage. It feels nice and the action seems good. But I do my own work anyway. (for better or worse) I was thinking I'd like to trade it for a 61 for conversion purposes.
The thing in my mind tells me that so many people think these are real colts (yeah I heard you guys... no insult intended) and it is this imaginary thing that makes its value. So I haven't been sure if I wanted to shoot it or not. Another possibility is that if I can do this uberti right, then I can do a conversion on the colt. And once the parts are available for that Cimarron Transition model, then I'll have the factory 45 Long Colt cylinder.
I also have to remind myself, that if I remember right 45 long colt opentops weren't made right? They were 44 conversions if I have been reading right. So I don't really know about that.

But Mike, as far as 6 shot conversion kits being made... don't hold your breath. The main customer base is SASS folks. Sass has rules and all those guys are abiding by it. River Junction last year had a 6 round in the white 45 long colt gated kit. They took it down when I was ready to buy one. I emailed them about it and Walt Kirst himself answered me and said that by Spring (this year) they would be available again. But it never appeared.
I think possibly the problem might be cylinder stress. Maybe they're blowing up or cracking. Mybe there are problems getting the brass to not overlap? I don't know.
I don't buy the others because they only have 5 cylinders and I want authenticity. If I played SASS, I would comply with SASS. But I won't comply because someone MAKES ME.

Does anyone own a new "harley"? I do. Have you ever owned a real one? I have. hehehe

 

[sjohns]

pohill...
Have you seen those sites with those original colts and conversions? Those guns are really tempting. Some of them look like they're begging to be fired some more. I can't believe the condition some of them appear to be in.

Little out of my budget line too, but one can always dream...

 

[pohill]

Sjohns, shoot the Signature Series 1860 and then you'll see the difference between that and, say, a Pietta (my Pietta 1860 is a good gun, but...)
They are made better, they look and feel better, they shoot better..and yep, you pay for it.

In an antique shop the other day I saw an old cylinder sitting on a shelf, marked "1851 Colt Navy conversion cylinder." They want $60 for it. I'm still tempted - why, I don't know. Man, that thing has some history.

 

[mike101]

I just realized that I kind of mixed up two different threads here. The other thread was about conversions. Oops.

Another reason why the Signature Colt Colts work better, and have smoother actions, is because everything was hand-fitted by REAL AMERICANS.

I'd also be willing to bet that Colt Blackpowder specified a better grade of steel than Uberti was using in their own guns. Cimarron did that when they began selling Uberti guns under their own name. They also paid Uberti a little extra for better fit & finish. I believe Taylor's has a special arrangement of some sort with Uberti, also.

Speaking of Uberti, have any of you ever seen an Uberti World Class gun? I haven't, so I was wondering how they stack up.

At the risk of veering OT, Happy New Year, guys!

 

[sjohns]

Mike!
You might like this:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=63269671

There are also several Dragoons for sale there.

 

[Left_Hip_Shooter]

First time shooting Colt Dragoon Model 3

Wow.
It is an Armi San Marcos that was used by a friend of mine as a wild west show gun at various county fairs.

It has a ding on one chamber of the cylinder, and I am not firing it. Does anyone know if it can be reamed back out to spec on that chamber? It can't be dented more than 001.

I was shooting 40 grains of pyrodex RS at 10 and 25 yds with a 451 round ball.
My best group was a string of 5 inside my palm size at 25yds. It shoots a bit high, as per usual, but I was impressed by its consistency.

And while most of my guns shoot, this on *detonates* It made people stop and stare at me. I think I am going to get another eventually.

 

[mike101]

Dragoon Conversions

I may be repeating myself, but check out www.armsportllc.com. They have a 3rd Dragoon conversion, and a Walker conversion, both Richards-type. The Walker is scary looking, but good scary. Really, could you imagine staring down the wrong end of this thing?

 

[sjohns]

My understanding is that those folks or that guy does some very high quality work. Did you look through that picture gallery?

He's probably well known to the SASS folks.

 

[mike101]

I did look through the gallery. I'd love to have one of each. I really like the Squareback Navy, too. Oh hell, I like all of them, but if I ever get my hands on a 2nd Gen. '51 Navy, that's where it's going.

 

[rifle]

Someone mentioned making a conversion. If you want to convert a Walker or Dragoon or 1860 Army to 45 Colt the cylinder walls get paper thin or thiner at the cylinder notches and the case heads are to wide for the ratchets at the rear of the cylinder. It's not safe to do a conversion of the above mentioned guns unless a new wider diameter cylinder is made. Can't use the original percussion cylinders for a conversion. It's been done but I believe the do'ers haven't measured the thickness left at the notches. The Uberti made 1860 conversion to 45 Colt has a non-authentic wider diameter cylinder made for it. In the old days Colt did rework some 1860 Army cylinders to be used for conversions but....they realized pretty quick that they were not wide enough even for 44 Colt. That's why they made new cylinders for the conversion of the 1860 Army. A Walker or Dragoon can be converted to 44 Colt with the original cylinder but the chamber throats will be oversize for the bullets and the barrel needs to be lined or the use of heeled bullets is needed and be "blackpowder only". The original 1860 Army Colt used heeled bullets because of the 45 barrel and the need to convert to 44 Colt because of the cylinder being small at the back half. The 44 Colt has the smallest case heads of any of the 44's and that's why. It was designed to fit the 1860 Army conversion. The Walkers and Dragoons can be converted and use 45's in the original cylinders if the index ratchet teeth are repositioned to be between the chambers instead of in line to the center of the chambers as they were in line with the nipples but the chamber walls get paper thin in the cylinder notches. There were cases with the conversion of the 1860 Colt Army even to 44 Colt(not 45 Colt) using the original cylinders where the bolt spring actually could drive the bolt through the cylinder notch wall and into the chamber. That's thin. Anyway I've read an article where a hobby gunsmith converted a Dragoon to 45 Colt and even fired it using round balls and blackpowder in the cases. Even with blackpowder in the cases and the use of lead round balls there is a good amount of pressure generated. I'd just as soon use one of those "drop in" conversions to 45 Colt in a Dragoon or Walker and be safer. Side note...I know it's possible to convert a Walker to 44 Special (or 44 Colt).The barrel needs to be lined though. It would be more authentic to use 44 Colt for a conversion since that is the cartridge that was available back in the day.

 

[sjohns]

Thanks Rifle, for the info. That's interesting and something to think about.