Draw or move first?

[Corpral_Agarn]

Hey THR,
I was doing some shooting/moving to concealment the other day and got to thinking:

If faced with a threat, quite suddenly, at a distance of 15 yards (I know not as likely as a 3 yrd encounter but its what prompted the thought). Would it be better to move to cover first or draw+fire, THEN move to cover/concealment?

Is it entirely dependent upon the situation?
Would distance from the threat matter?

I opened the discussion up with my shooting partners and the two schools of thought were:

1. "Get off the X!" Move to cover then engage the threat. (didn't want to sound too tacticool, but you get the idea)
OR
2. "Stand and deliver" Draw, Fire until threat is suppressed or neutralized then move to cover. (I believe this was Bill Jordan's philosophy?)

Would it matter if you have cover or concealment? Meaning if you have cover, you move to it. If you have only concealment, engage immediately.

I am familiar with getting behind something (anything) if you think you may be forced into a confrontation but I am more interested in what to do if you find yourself faced with the threat(s) suddenly.

Thanks!

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Corpral_Agarn: If faced with a threat, quite suddenly, at a distance of 15 yards (I know not as likely as a 3 yrd encounter but its what prompted the thought). Would it be better to move to cover first or draw+fire, THEN move to cover/concealment? Is it entirely dependent upon the situation? Would distance from the threat matter?

What do you mean by "faced with a threat"? To what kind of threat do you refer?

If you are threatened with imminent death or serious bodily harm, and if you have no other choice, you would likely be justified in the immediate use of deadly force, depending upon the circumstances. But you do not want to have to use deadly force unless you have to.

If the 'threat' appears to be armed with a contact weapon. your only objective is to avoid being hurt by that weapon. If he is really close enough to pose an imminent threat, you may well have to move aside or back and around something as you draw and fire. Swinging your car door or shoving a shopping cart may prove useful.

If you are attacked by someone with a gun, fast shooting and moving at the same time may keep you from being shot. If you can get to cover, so much the better.

If the encounter starts at three yards, you will be in a world of hurt. Consider firing a concealed hammer revolver from a pocket. You will have enough difficulty drawing and firing and stopping a charging assailant from the proverbial Tueller distance (seven yards). If you are "faced with a threat" at a distance that is much larger, consider how you will persuade others that deadly force had been immediately necessary.

You do not want to adopt the mindset of "engaging the threat". That's for law enforcement. Your goal should be avoidance, and using force only as a last resort.

 

[David E]

Move or draw?

Yes!

 

[Hometeached1]

I'm no expert, but if I had cover within 5-7yrds and was faced with a treat at 15yrds. I would move towards it, if I had been scanning before and saw that there was a clear path/it didn't contain someone that could be working with the threat. If only concealment was available, I would draw and fire, IF I had a clear background/line of sight. This would mostly depend on the type of threat, like is he armed with a knife, handgun, shotgun, rifle and or a club/bat? Also what type of handgun(s) are you armed with? And lastly, how many people are threading you? It's good to think of stuff like this BEFORE you have to draw your sidearm. I know I've talked about stuff like this with my Dad and other people who have firearms for defense. The more people you talk with and "cross examine" you'll come up with some pretty interesting situations. I'm looking forward to seeing all the responses.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

Hi Kleanbore,
I had it more detailed in my head and I should have posted it.

First things first: I do not have any kind of police or military mindset. I am not "tactical" kinda guy by any stretch of the imagination. My strategy when faced with an imminent confrontation is focused largely around De-escalation, then if that fails running like a banshee. But I am not always alone and that strategy leaves out anyone i may wish to protect.

When I say "engage the threat" I mean imminent threat. As in some one is pointing some kind of firearm at you with the intent of shooting.

I hadn't really thought of a solid "scenario" for this I was just curious if the folks with formal training had been taught anything specific for which is more important: stop the bullets from coming your way or getting out of the way of the bullets.
For a scenario, I guess it would involve, perhaps, a friend getting mugged at gun point by a group of thugs and the friend has been forced to use deadly force. I decide to help as best I can but find myself at a further distance from the bad guys (like 15 yrds).
But I wasn't really as concerned with the details of scenario. My shooting mates and I had a fun discussion and thought I would get the input from the folks at THR and report back next time.

So you suggest moving and shooting at the same time. I am not good at that. I am really good at moving (I run pretty good) and I am a decently good at shooting.
Whenever I have tried to put the two of them together (moving fast and shooting) I feel like I am wasting valuable ammo. Is this a skill I should be investing time into?

Thanks

 

[The M]

You can save a bunch of ammo by practicing shooting and moving with a empty gun. Get the mechanics down first then add ammo later. If you have a laser you can note where the dot is when the hammer falls to give you some idea of your accuracy.

 

[Sam1911]

So you suggest moving and shooting at the same time. I am not good at that. I am really good at moving (I run pretty good) and I am a decently good at shooting.
Whenever I have tried to put the two of them together (moving fast and shooting) I feel like I am wasting valuable ammo. Is this a skill I should be investing time into?

Absolutely! A critical foundation of defensive shooting. As you move, you should be drawing. As you're drawing, you should be moving. As you're "getting off the 'X'", you should be firing.

A pal of mine once termed it "hide behind the wall of bullets."

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Corpral_Agarn: For a scenario, I guess it would involve, perhaps, a friend getting mugged at gun point by a group of thugs and the friend has been forced to use deadly force. I decide to help as best I can but find myself at a further distance from the bad guys (like 15 yrds).

Gosh.

I would hate to shoot from a distance at any of a group of thugs who were in the act of mugging someone else. Think of the danger of hurting your friend.

So you suggest moving and shooting at the same time. I am not good at that. I am really good at moving (I run pretty good) and I am a decently good at training. Whenever I have tried to put the two of them together (moving fast and shooting) I feel like I am wasting valuable ammo. Is this a skill I should be investing time into?

I suggest availing yourself of some really good high performance defensive pistol shooting; practice shooting extremely rapidly (three or four shots per second) at multiple targets, and learn to shoot while running forward, sideways, and backward.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

Gosh.

I would hate to shoot from a distance at any of a group of thugs who were in the act of mugging someone else. Think of the danger of hurting your friend.

I suggest availing yourself of some really good high performance defensive pistol shooting; practice shooting extremely rapidly (three or four shots per second) at multiple targets, and learn to shoot while running forward, sideways, and backward.

Kleanbore:
I mean no disrespect and very much appreciate your input but I feel a like you may be missing my intent with the OP.
You seem very focused on specific details of a made up scenario. I wasn't posting for someone to pick apart how good my imagination and skill at creating made up scenarios. I could take a creative writing course if that's what I was looking for.
A good training course is certainly in order here, but if THR is not about helping us poor souls who haven't done the training, can't afford it, just have questions, or want to learn from others training, what is the point?

And if, in my made up scenario, you friend or brother is being attacked by a group of bad guys and he as already made the choice to fight, you recommend not helping? I am not really inclined to that school of thought.

 

[allaroundhunter]

Gunfights are not static scenarios. You wit always have the luxury of running to cover, then draw, then aim, etc.

Learn to shoot on the move. If I am faced with an imminent threat and there is cover or concealment available to me then I will draw and most likely begin engaging the threat as I moved towards cover. My other option would be to engage the threat as I moved (not towards cover).

 

[9MMare]

This seems obvious but you can draw, aim, and move at the same time. Very useful training and IMO, more fun than just standing and shooting.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...A good training course is certainly in order here, but if THR is not about helping us poor souls who haven't done the training, can't afford it, just have questions, or want to learn from others training, what is the point?...

At the same time, THR can not be a substitute for training.

The real answer to your question is that if under attack such that the use of lethal force is justified, one should be moving, drawing and shooting at the same time -- seeking cover or concealment if available. If you don't have the skills to do that, exactly what your best choice might be will depend on exactly what is happening and how it is happening.

...And if, in my made up scenario, you friend or brother is being attacked by a group of bad guys and he as already made the choice to fight, you recommend not helping?...

By all means help. But the question is how can you best help. And the answer will depend on exactly what is happening and how it is happening, as well as what you are actually capable of doing under the circumstances.

So, for example --

1. Shooting from a distance at a group of struggling people trying to hit the bad guys and not the innocent is a lousy idea unless, perhaps, you are an extraordinary marksman.
   
   
2. Do you know exactly what happened and how? Do you know that under all the circumstances your friend or brother would be legally justified to use lethal force in self defense (e. g., are you absolutely positive he didn't start it)? That is the standard when coming to the aid of a third party.

 

[Kleanbore]

Corpral, Frank answered quite well. Here are some things that we can share with those who have not had the opportunity to train properly:

• It is extremely important to understand the difference beween shooting at static targets at a range and defensive shooting. Speed of draw and presentation, rapidity of fire, and the ability to shoot while moving are of utmost importance.
• It is essential to understand the basic concepts of use of force law; we have several stickies in ST&T that should prove helpful. Reading the accounts of some trials could be very enlightening.
• The most imortant strategy is "ADEE"--avoidance, deescalation, evasion, and escape. Always move away from a fight.
• It is rarely prudent for anyone other than a sworn officer who has a duty to do so, who is trained, who has backup, and who is indemnified by the community, to intervene in third-party conflicts.
• First, do no harm; avoid putting others at risk unless your life is at stake. Think "back stop".
• Avail yourself of some training at the earliest opportunity. You just cannot afford not to.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

Frank, Kleanbore:
You gentlemen are both very correct. And I have no qualms with your explanations and humbly submit that everything Kleanbore outlined above is spot on.
While these are concepts that I am familiar with, it is good that they are mentioned none the less.

I goofed on this thread.
My shooting buddies and I were having a discussion over priorities (move to cover then draw vs draw and move to cover) if our targets were bad guys and we were running our course as if they were shooting back. Our targets happened to be at about 15-25 yrds.

I should not have offered a "scenario" because I was more interested peoples opinions with regards to which action comes first: seek cover vs make bad guys seek cover.
It was while i was "running the course" that I brought up the idea of "hey guys, if those targets were shooting back, do you think it would be better to go for cover/concealment or shoot first then go for cover concealment?"

We didn't have a scenario thought out, because for us, the shooting had already begun and the scenario started at the exchange of fire.

The most common answer on this board was one I hadn't really considered but shooting and moving makes good sense, of course.

Now for one more question:
I didn't think of moving and shooting because I figure you would need to slow your speed to improve accuracy. And conversely, by increasing your speed you also would be decreasing your accuracy, right?

Would not the added speed of running straight for cover or the added accuracy of focused fire be an advantage over a combination of both?

I guess i figured:
The longer you are out of cover the more likely you are to get shot (+1 for running for cover)
OR
The more bullets they shoot at you before interruption the more likely you are to get shot (+1 for focused shooting)

I humbly seek clarification/wisdom. Thanks again, All.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

The first rule of a gunfight is don't get shot.

When in the open, movement and distance are your immediate protection. Focus on moving first then once you're in motion draw your handgun. If you can safely fire while you're moving then it puts your adversary at risk and creates a second problem for him/her to deal with.

(The second rule of a gun fight is if you do get shot then drive-on and don't give-up.)

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

I have only had some little formal training in defensive shooting...lots of training on fighting and moving. The first thing we learned and the first thing I teach is to *move*!! You need to be drawing and firing *while* moving laterally and to cover if it is present.

My first martial arts teacher used to ask us "If you are in the street and a truck comes around the corner suddenly, very fast, and you are in danger do you strike a pose or take a stance? NO! You move as quickly as possible while engaging in defensive measures and you move laterally, not at or away from an opponent."

This is the way I train now - Move laterally while drawing and point shooting as you move to cover if it is available. If no cover continue moving laterally especially if you are confronted by a gunman. Make him take deflection shots at you if he fires - do not move to/or away unless it is at an angle that forces a deflection shot.

But move...

VooDoo

 

[JohnBiltz]

Depends entirely on circumstances. If I'm say one step from a nice thick brick wall I'm going for the wall. If I'm standing in the middle of a football field I'm drawing. Those are extreme examples but you see the point. I will also say there is less cover than you think out there, its mostly concealment.

 

[David E]

A pal of mine once termed it "hide behind the wall of bullets."

Don't forget there is a lawyer attached to each and every bullet you fire building your wall.

.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I didn't think of moving and shooting because I figure you would need to slow your speed to improve accuracy. And conversely, by increasing your speed you also would be decreasing your accuracy, right?

Would not the added speed of running straight for cover or the added accuracy of focused fire be an advantage over a combination of both?

I humbly seek clarification/wisdom. Thanks again, All.

I found it interesting that you separate them. But I understand it is a by-product of shooting from a static line. Drawing doesn't take that much time and shouldn't really affect the speed that you'd move.

Unless there is cover, your initial lateral move should be to your left. As you step out with your left foot, your hand would draw the gun; as your left foot lands, you can break your first shot...hands are faster than feet. The right foot follows the left, as it lands you would likely be firing your second or third shot.

You foot speed is dictated by your ability to unload and place your foot. How would that affect your ability to draw and fire accurately?

Your ability to shoot accurately is dictated by your ability to draw your gun, bring it to eye level, and see your sights. How would that affect how fast you can step sideways?

 

[Sam1911]

Now for one more question:
I didn't think of moving and shooting because I figure you would need to slow your speed to improve accuracy. And conversely, by increasing your speed you also would be decreasing your accuracy, right?

Would not the added speed of running straight for cover or the added accuracy of focused fire be an advantage over a combination of both?

As others pointed out recently in some other threads, the idea isn't necessarily that you're going to run TO COVER, with the intend of getting to an area of protection from bullets. If you can, that's terrific, but few things in our regular environments are actually COVER from bullets. Most are just concealment. Second, it is hard to literally outrun a bullet.

The best protection is afforded by a combination of moving off the line of force AND shooting.

You can practice that first part by setting up some very simple exercises with a pal and a nerf gun or even a pointed finger. If you're trying to to get shot, which way should you move, relative to the "attacker?" It sure isn't straight away from him. (Especially backwards, which adds slowness to your problems.) If you really think about it, a guy could probably run nearly 30 yards in a straight line away from you before he became a whole lot harder to hit with a bullet. The target is getting smaller, and it is bouncing a little, but it's still RIGHT THERE in front of the sights.

However, movement perpendicular to, or obliquely off of, the bore line of the gun is 10x harder to follow. We generally suggest that you move toward the shooter's gun side, because that's the single hardest correction for him to make. He's got to turn to follow and probably take a step back with his strong-side foot to keep that gun on you. In fact, in some situations, even moving toward the guy increases his difficulty in tracking you -- though you really need to be pressing your own attack...you need to have a very good answer to the "what next?" question in mind.

That's where the second part comes into play. If you are comfortable drawing and shooting while moving, you can combine throwing off his index with making him take defensive action of his own. (Or break off the attack in a more permanent fashion.)

These are -- it should really go without saying -- EXTREMELY dire, last-ditch efforts. If there is any way at all to talk your way out of the situation, or even to play the submissive and give the guy what he wants (assuming you've read in his manner that he's really looking for a "score" and not to murder someone), by all means don't draw. Trying to draw to an already drawn gun is a losing proposition. Contrary to the movies, the guy who tries to outdraw the gun that's already on him, usually gets shot. But if you can incorporate the most effective kinds of movement and follow up with your own near-instantaneous and rapid attack, you can perhaps better the odds.



...


MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better to be aware. observe, avoid, and de-escalate in any instance you possibly can.

 

[shafter]

Draw as your moving and as soon as you stop begin firing. That could mean dropping into a crouch or moving for cover.

 

[crazyjennyblack]

Also consider this question - are you alone or are you with others? If you're with others, are they armed too? I think your answer will vary greatly depending on the situation.

If, for example, I'm with an unarmed friend, I will probably stand and deliver for a second or two while she makes a break for it, and then fire while moving. If I'm with someone who is has a physical disability, running might not be an option at all. If I'm alone, I will probably draw, run, and fire as little as possible. Statistics show that quite often, merely drawing the weapon is enough to deter your attacker, and I imagine that if you look like a victim and suddenly draw a weapon it's going to cause them a moment of surprise - just enough for you to escape. Overall if possible, I favor getting out of there ASAP.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Draw as your moving and as soon as you stop begin firing. That could mean dropping into a crouch or moving for cover.

Why would dropping into a crouch naturally follow movement?

Why would you have to stop to begin shooting?

Surely you aren't advocating timing your shots with landing into a position

 

[allaroundhunter]

Draw as your moving and as soon as you stop begin firing. That could mean dropping into a crouch or moving for cover.

Um, no. Shoot as you move. You are saying to waste valuable time by waiting until you are still to start shooting which will only get you killed. Shootings are over in an average of 5 seconds or so and you need to be engaging the threat as soon as possible so that you are the one still standing when those 5 seconds are over.

If you can't shoot accurately when moving, then you aren't prepared to defend yourself. There is no way around that. And if you don't regularly practice, then you are only making it harder to acquire and improve that skill.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Some reason you can't do both?