Originally Posted By Sam1911:
Probably should say "WHILE" there. "Before" seems to give in to the misconception that you cannot do two things at once. Every shooter can be trained to move AS they draw, at any speed.
Sam, I like your responses; I really do; and I thank you for making them. Perhaps we should discuss this a little further.
‘While’ I have no specific objection to moving while you draw, I strongly prefer not to. Why? Because moving your feet AND your hand(s) at the same time can get a shooter into trouble.
I’ve watched trained police officers do the, ‘move and draw’ technique. Without exception they, all, glanced down at the ground around them before, first, beginning to move their feet. After taking the first step or two into cover, then, (if the gun weren't already in hand) the draw would begin.
Personally, I follow the same technique myself. Both of my feet are set BEFORE I begin indexing my muzzle onto the target POINT I intend to hit. Moving the feet, AND skillfully moving the gun at the same time is not only difficult to do, but, it is also risky. An off-balance shooter is a distracted shooter.
(Yes, while I will agree that IDPA shooting is NOT defensive combat shooting, you can still learn a lot about how people move under stress by watching IDPA shooters move from station-to-station. Personally, I’ve never seen an IDPA shooter attempt to move AND shoot at the same time. The feet always get, ‘planted’ first.)
Originally Posted By Sam1911:
Important, yes, but inside a certain distance the best response might be moving IN, not out. For a right-handed attacker, moving left and IN might get you inside his muzzle radius and give you a chance to grab, deflect, and get a contact-distance shot while he's trying to turn to follow you. This is more of a wrestling/grappling move than a classical gunfighting move.
That’s a very good point; and it might go to, both, technique as well as opportunity. Frankly, ‘stepping into a target’ is not something I’ve ever preferred to do. Not even once in my life has any pistol combat instructor encouraged me to, ‘step into the target’. To, 'get lead into it’, yes, but not to step in closer to a, 'healthy target'.
I’ve studied the tactical autonomy of several CQB pistol assassinations, as well as the precise CQB pistol combat technique used by Jim Cirillo. More about this later, OK. ………. Right now let it suffice to say that it is rarely a good idea to, ‘step into’ the other guy’s muzzle.
Originally Posted By Sam1911:
We do often say a "fair" hit fast is much better than a GREAT hit slow. You can't miss fast enough to win, but you CAN aim slow enough to lose. Train to get hits somewhere immediately.
Well said! This savvy, street fighting, pistol technique was brought out in the 2007 FBI report on how criminals use guns. The proven efficacy of the street fighting technique to simply, ‘throw bullets downrange’ at an intended victim stood out in stark contrast to the heavy emphasis placed on accurate marksmanship as it is taught to law enforcement pistol shooters.
In spite of what we, so often, read on internet gun forums about repeated, ‘failures-to-stop’, it IS entirely possible to take the other guy out of the fight by simply disabling him with no more than a painful incapacitating wound. (A protagonist being taken out of a CQB pistol gunfight with only a minor, but debilitating, wound has often been shown on TV police action programs.)
Originally Posted By Sam1911:
Certainly a worthy study, just please do remember that he was a cop doing a very specific job that doesn't look much like defensive shooting. Ambushing and killing robbers, as a sworn law officer, has some different rules. Or it did in his day, anyway.
Correct! As previous mentioned, Cirillo DID step into his targets whenever it was possible for him to do so. Accounts of his gunfights, also, point out that he fired first and, THEN, began stepping into the target as he continued to press the fight - All at very close range.
It should, also, be pointed out that Cirillo usually had both the time AND the occasion to plan his attacks. He already knew the ground he would be moving over BEFORE he began to move. This is, ‘a luxury’ that most CQB pistol gunfighters do NOT have.
Consequently, I am (usually) NOT a proponent of moving AND shooting at the same time. Neither am I comfortable in allowing an adversary to get inside his own, ‘personal combat comfort zone’ before I’ve already begun to fire.
(‘PCCZ’: That distance at which an adversary is, both, practiced and confident that he can use a pistol well enough to stop an opponent. For a large majority of street gunfighters this distance is, indeed, inside the proverbial 7 1/2 yards. The lower the skill level, the less the self-discipline, the closer the preferred engagement distance is going to be.)
Originally Posted By Sam1911:
A good point. At the 3'-to-contact range it is probably more important to keep your gun from being grabbed or deflected than to aim your shots. "Shooting from retention," shooting from position 2 of the draw stroke, "speed rock," etc.,
Agreed! Whether deliberate or subliminal, though, it is nonetheless vitally important to always be aiming your shots.
As previously mentioned: Personally, I don’t think about aiming while working inside 5 or 6 yards. I’m sure that, on some level of awareness, I do aim; it’s just that I don’t put any conscious thought into the experience. (Every really talented pistolero I’ve known has been capable of doing this.)
Originally Posted By Sam1911:
Several names and specific styles all basically using your body to provide a pointing index to direct the gun into the target from very close range without extending it out in front of you. This is a whole study in itself and if you're going to practice shooting "from retention" it would be VERY good to get a bit of instruction in this before you try to teach yourself. There are some good videos on line, but the possibility does exist to injure yourself and/or shoot unsafely if you aren't extremely careful.
We’re getting into, something of, ‘cross purposes’; but, yes, I’ve already stated the particular hold and sight reference technique I prefer to use AFTER 5 or 6 yards.
Personally, I’m more than capable of making, ‘sloppy hits’ at 7 to 10 yards; and, sometimes, I like to, ‘waste’ ammunition by dallying around with longer range point shooting; but, quite frankly, it goes against the precise nature of how I prefer to use a pistol. (By the way, Sam, I am an instructor.)
Originally Posted By Sam1911:
This becomes part of a continuum of developing precision in aiming as you move from contact out to longer distances. From the retention position very close in, to a collapsed hold off of the sight line, to a rough silhouette index of the back of the gun superimposed on the target, to a "front-sight-press" flash picture, to a fully "dressed" sight picture for longer range precision.
A good defensive shooting instructor can help you visualize and develop these positions and skills. If you're going to explore them I highly recommend getting some help.
Now we are at cross purposes. The above bold text is the antithetical opposite of the CQB pistol gunfighting technique - the gunfighting philosophy - I’ve attempted to put across. Not that what is said in the above quote is, ‘wrong’; it’s simply exactly where I never want to find myself.
(NOT because I can’t handle it. Because it’s where I strongly prefer not to be! Why? Because any such juxtaposition always works to the bad guy’s advantage.)
Originally Posted By Sam1911:
Yessir! Doing to him what you're trying not to let him do to you. Move, draw, deflect/strike, protect your own gun -- simultaneously. Again, this is contact-distance stuff. ‘YOU’ (Ed.) need to develop a feel for where this works and where other things are better.
We are in agreement! (I presume that, ‘You’ is nonspecific, though - Correct.)
