Draw or move first?

[Deaf Smith]

Hey THR,

If faced with a threat, quite suddenly, at a distance of 15 yards (I know not as likely as a 3 yrd encounter but its what prompted the thought). Would it be better to move to cover first or draw+fire, THEN move to cover/concealment?

Corpral,

If lead is already flying... I'd suggest moving ASAP to cover.

If you think you can get your roscoe out and make the shot before he can, I suggest you do.

And if not sure... by default move to cover.

Shooting and moving at 15 yards at a person who may very well be also moving is not advisable unless you are in a WAR.

Then you will have automatic weapons and don't care about innocent people behind him.

Deaf

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Move and Draw!

 

[Queen_of_Thunder]

If you can't shoot and move at the same time you shouldn't be carrying a gun.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

If you can't shoot and move at the same time you shouldn't be carrying a gun.

Okay, okay... a statement like that isn't really all that helpful.
I think you should tell that to the guy in the wheelchair who is packing everyday and see if he agrees with you.

Even a person who has never fired a gun can move and shoot. Doesn't mean its a good idea or that they will hit what they are aiming at.

Help me here:
When people say you have to move and shoot, just how fast are they going? I am semi athletic (involved with running sports) and can cover a short sprint fairly quickly. However, at top moving speed, I would just be spraying rounds like they do in the movies (pretty much). That's not good.

But if i am to actually hit what I am aiming at, I will be moving much slower.

Also, at what speed is moving and shooting acceptable? Just how fast are we talking here?

 

[Fred Fuller]

I had this bookmarked, which is why I mention it...

This drill is performed with a shotgun not a handgun, but it's a typical Awerbuck 4-way drill ... should give you some idea of what's involved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MujiSSm_dE

It is FAR better (not to mention safer) to learn this at the hands of a pro trainer than to try and do it on your own... and there are usually a couple of days of training (in a 3-day class) BEFORE this sort of thing starts happening.

 

[taliv]

i practice moving as fast as i can doing the heel toe duck walk thing. not like a full out sprint but more like a mall speed walker pace

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

That's helpful, Fred, thank you!

Now that is about the speed that I figured one would be moving at to make decent shoots.

So my thought was, because you cannot move very quickly and make decent shots, maybe sprint for some cover then worry about shooting?

What I think people are saying when they say "move and shoot" is draw+fire and work your way to cover.
Meaning that the cover would be second in priority to putting bullets downrange. That's what I wanted to know.

I found this vid on youtube as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5Syr8osPnA

He is moving much faster but is pausing slightly to make accurate shots.

Thanks again, All. I do appreciate your responses.

 

[Kleanbore]

Corpral, this one is worth watching, too.

 

[Sam1911]

That's a good way to put it. Think of it this way -- this is evading being shot not fleeing in panic. There's a big difference. You need to move quickly, but not at warp speed, because that would destroy the second half of your response -- SHOOTING -- which is just as important.

Further, how fast can you really sprint sideways? Remember that I pointed out you aren't running directly away, but moving off the line of force? That's often side-stepping. Moving perpendicularly to the threat, angularly, or radially.

A drill that might be helpful to run (IN A SAFE PLACE LIKE A HIGH-BERM BAY or 360 deg. pit) is to place a target in front of you at 3' distance, then draw and move and begin firing as you walk back and to your left in what looks like the arm of a spiral pattern. In other words, as you create distance, keep stepping left so you're moving in a circular pattern. Depending on your range layout, you could even use two targets (beside and at right angles to each other) to better simulate a 3-dimensional threat. What you're trying to do is keep your aim and focus on him, and getting good hits on him, while making him continually correct to track you.

Even walking in this pattern isn't something you're going to do at sprinting speeds.

 

[Sam1911]

To get an even better understanding of hot to fight with a gun, do a web search for "Southnarc" and see some of the more realistic training you could take.

(Here's a bit of it: http://store.greygrouptraining.com/SOUTHNARC/)

At some point, static targets on posts standing on a firing range are really just very abstract representations of what we're trying to prepare for.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

Kleanbore:
that vid is really good. Thanks for posting it.

Sam1911:
Thank you for your reply I think it is very helpful. That drill sounds like a good one. Combined with Kleanbore's vid, I think that my shooting mates and I could put together some safe drills to get a better idea of what we should be practicing.
The use of an airsoft gun while being attacked makes good sense. Even without the bb's, the drawing and firing while getting out of the way would be a great exercise.

So in my mind, it seems that the most important thing would be to get out of the way or "moving off the line of force" followed immediately (or concurrently, rather) with drawing+firing.

Here's how I figure it:

1. Recognize attack
2. Begin moving off the line of force
3. draw weapon
4. begin firing
5. keep moving as far and as fast as possible from line of force

Now, I understand that 2 and 3 can happen at the same time, it just makes sense to me to put them in that order. Because if nothing else (fumble your weapon, have to unzip or pull up shirt) you need to get out the way.

Thanks again, All.
I have learned a lot with this thread (a good portion of that being how to post a thread!)

 

[ilbob]

if the guy was 15 yards away - I would be moving as fast as I could. that is a long way to be engaging someone with a handgun.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Corpral_Agarn: Here's how I figure it:

1. Recognize attack
2. Begin moving off the line of force
3. draw weapon
4. begin firing
5. keep moving as far and as fast as possible from line of force

Now, I understand that 2 and 3 can happen at the same time, it just makes sense to me to put them in that order. Because if nothing else (fumble your weapon, have to unzip or pull up shirt) you need to get out the way.

I think that sums it up pretty well, but I would start off with...

i. Look for and recognize signs of potential danger
ii. Get out or stay away

Then, if that fails....

 

[ATLDave]

FWIW, practical shooting competitions, like USPSA or IDPA, are pretty good at forcing you to learn to draw and/or shoot while moving. Not every stage will do it, but many will.

 

[ilbob]

Kleanbore:
that vid is really good. Thanks for posting it.

Sam1911:
Thank you for your reply I think it is very helpful. That drill sounds like a good one. Combined with Kleanbore's vid, I think that my shooting mates and I could put together some safe drills to get a better idea of what we should be practicing.
The use of an airsoft gun while being attacked makes good sense. Even without the bb's, the drawing and firing while getting out of the way would be a great exercise.

So in my mind, it seems that the most important thing would be to get out of the way or "moving off the line of force" followed immediately (or concurrently, rather) with drawing+firing.

Here's how I figure it:

1. Recognize attack
2. Begin moving off the line of force
3. draw weapon
4. begin firing
5. keep moving as far and as fast as possible from line of force

Now, I understand that 2 and 3 can happen at the same time, it just makes sense to me to put them in that order. Because if nothing else (fumble your weapon, have to unzip or pull up shirt) you need to get out the way.

Thanks again, All.
I have learned a lot with this thread (a good portion of that being how to post a thread!)

I question this sequence.

At 15 yards it may make more sense to just run off as fast as possible and forget even trying to draw, much less shooting, or trying to maintain some aspect to a potential foe.

My guess is that in most cases you are less likely to die from running away and have a very good chance of getting away clean.

getting into a fire fight is a good way to get dead.

your chances of hitting someone that far away while one or both are in motion is pretty low.

your potential assailant's chances of hitting you while you are running away is low. chances are if you run off he is not going to bother to either chase you or shoot at you.

 

[strambo]

Well, your 15 yard hypothetical is also kinda extreme. It would typically (for a citizen being attacked) be more like 3-5 yards. At that range I practice sprinting offline while drawing and (point) shooting and can get COM hits.

In the photo, that is my 2nd shot, the Hi res. photo shows 2 sternum hits, but they can't be seen here. I didn't know which of the 8 targets would turn, I was walking around between engagements.

 

[ilbob]

Well, your 15 yard hypothetical is also kinda extreme. It would typically (for a citizen being attacked) be more like 3-5 yards. At that range I practice sprinting offline while drawing and (point) shooting and can get COM hits.

In the photo, that is my 2nd shot, the Hi res. photo shows 2 sternum hits, but they can't be seen here. I didn't know which of the 8 targets would turn, I was walking around between engagements.

There is a big difference between 3-5 yards and 15 yards.

There is a big difference between shooting at pieces of cardboard in a fun game and engaging in a life or death firefight with someone who is armed and willing to kill you.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Now, I understand that 2 and 3 can happen at the same time, it just makes sense to me to put them in that order. Because if nothing else (fumble your weapon, have to unzip or pull up shirt) you need to get out the way.

As I mentioned back in Post #19, moving and drawing happen at the same time. You are more prone to fumble when drawing from a moving holster (attached to your moving leg) than a holster which hasn't yet started to move

He is moving much faster but is pausing slightly to make accurate shots.

You shouldn't have to pause to make accurate shots. Look at the speed these guys are moving. Ignore the optics on their guns, you can do the same thing with open sights

http://youtu.be/fE2go2TjHK8

While looking, I happened to find this...for moving quickly and shooting start at 4:00...and this instructor is in CA

http://youtu.be/2H6MugwMqIU

 

[strambo]

There is a big difference between 3-5 yards and 15 yards.

There is a big difference between shooting at pieces of cardboard in a fun game and engaging in a life or death firefight with someone who is armed and willing to kill you

ilbob, I wasn't directly responding to your post, but the OP and his 15yd hypothetical scenario, sorry for any misunderstanding. 15 yards is something that should be trained for, but not a common distance a civilian would have to engage a threat.

Your advice to just run away if the threat is 15yds away is very sound if practicable.

I typically shoot at 3D clothed targets, have only played fun "games" (competitions) twice, and have extensive combat training and experience...

 

[taliv]

You shouldn't have to pause to make accurate shots. Look at the speed these guys are moving. Ignore the optics on their guns, you can do the same thing with open sights

http://youtu.be/fE2go2TjHK8

this

(I'm not that good with a pistol, but i can get consistent hits moving that speed with an AR)

 

[allaroundhunter]

There is a big difference between 3-5 yards and 15 yards.

There is a big difference between shooting at pieces of cardboard in a fun game and engaging in a life or death firefight with someone who is armed and willing to kill you.

But how often do you practice for this type of situation by getting into a life and death firefight?

I get your point, but that is common sense. It is also understood that you can't practice for such a situation with a similar life-or-death situation. However, practicing as is shown is better than shooting stationary in a range stall.


If I am 15 yards away from a threat and can get away without shooting, then I will. But I'm answering from the thought that I cannot get away and must react with deadly force. In that instance, it is still best to draw and shoot as you move.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Hey THR,
I was doing some shooting/moving to concealment the other day and got to thinking:

If faced with a threat, quite suddenly, at a distance of 15 yards (I know not as likely as a 3 yrd encounter but its what prompted the thought). Would it be better to move to cover first or draw+fire, THEN move to cover/concealment?

Is it entirely dependent upon the situation?
Would distance from the threat matter?

Of course this is entirely dependent upon the situation! How could it not be?

Suppose the guy just made his presence known by posturing with a weapon? How does this change how you would respond if he had made his presence known during a sprint towards you?


EVERYTHING about a violent encounter depends on the specific circumstances of that encounter. Don't allow yourself to develop a mindset that needlessly boxes you into any small group of actions to take in response.

 

[9MMare]

Okay, okay... a statement like that isn't really all that helpful.
I think you should tell that to the guy in the wheelchair who is packing everyday and see if he agrees with you.

Even a person who has never fired a gun can move and shoot. Doesn't mean its a good idea or that they will hit what they are aiming at.

Help me here:
When people say you have to move and shoot, just how fast are they going? I am semi athletic (involved with running sports) and can cover a short sprint fairly quickly. However, at top moving speed, I would just be spraying rounds like they do in the movies (pretty much). That's not good.

But if i am to actually hit what I am aiming at, I will be moving much slower.

Also, at what speed is moving and shooting acceptable? Just how fast are we talking here?

It's not about speed...the moving part, I mean. When you move, you ruin their target, partially or completely. That right there gives you an added advantage and chance at survival. You dont need a gun for that. You just need to move. Doesnt really matter how fast altho I guess faster is better.

OTOH, training is needed to see just how fast you can move AND draw and aim accurately.

But the moving part? In most situations I'd do it no matter if I was armed or not.

 

[Glock Doctor]

Hey THR, I was doing some shooting/moving to concealment the other day and got to thinking:

If faced with a threat, quite suddenly, at a distance of 15 yards (I know not as likely as a 3 yd encounter but its what prompted the thought). Would it be better to move to cover first or draw+fire, THEN move to cover/concealment?

Is it entirely dependent upon the situation? Would distance from the threat matter?

Last post of the night: I’m going to do you a favor! I have a friend who, unlike many people, has actually been in a number of CQB pistol gunfights. During several lengthy conversations I’ve had with him he was good enough to wise me up to the following:

1. If you have, BOTH, the time and the cover available then, yes, make your first move to get off Gab Suarez’s, ‘X’ BEFORE you attempt to draw and engage.

2. Distance in a CQB pistol gunfight is ALWAYS important! The closer two gunfight protagonists are to each other then the higher the probability that both will be hit. (Which is the real reason, ‘Why’ you should continue to practice with your pistol at distances up to 15 to 18 yards.)

3. EVERY GUNFIGHTER seeks to operate from within his own, ‘personal comfort combat zone.’ For most people this distance is, something less than, 7 to 10 yards; (or even less! It depends on the individual gunman and his level of skill.) This means that if your, ‘personal combat horizon’ is significantly greater than your adversary’s then the initial advantage in a CQB pistol gunfight will default to YOU!

4. Sounds like you need to read Dave Spaulding’s seminal article on, ‘What Really Happens In A Gunfight!’ (Google it; and, then, really think about what you read.)

5. My friend, for whatever reasons, never had either the time or the cover to, ‘get off the X’; and did all of his CQB pistol gunfighting by, ‘standing behind his gun’. In light of the above information you should, now, understand, ‘What’ this means.

6. Whoever draws and fires FIRST in a CQB pistol gunfight has the advantage. If you question this, study the life of a veteran CQB pistol gunfighter like Jim Cirillo. In the majority of Cirillo’s CQB pistol gunfights he was the protagonist who drew and fired first. (You may, also, see this knowing behavior demonstrated by watching how law enforcement officers are trained to behave with a gun in their hands on, just about, any of the currently well-televised police action programs.)

7. Because of the, ‘nature of the sport’ you might appreciate that: Honest-to-goodness hard cover is only rarely available. Don’t teach yourself to depend on, ‘crutches’ in order to walk. Don’t, ‘build your own walls and, then, seek to climb over them’.

8. The greatest risk you will ever face in a CQB pistol gunfight is being, ‘jumped’ inside 7.5 yards. Watch the other guy’s, ‘Body English’; in particular watch his hands; and don’t let that happen. If things should, all of a sudden, ‘go South’ on you ……… well, you, now, know what to do.

(Perhaps I should mention that neither my friend nor I actually aim while we're working in close to a target. The both of us have been doing this for long enough to hit anything without visually aiming while firing inside 5 or 6 yards.)

9. Personally, if I were ever jumped like this the three things I would attempt to accomplish during the last second, or two, would be to (1) take one step backwards with my gun side leg, (2) Then if applicable: Sweep, slap, or push off with my support hand, and conclusively (3) ‘fade’ my gun hand away from an adversary’s reach as I drew and fired my pistol.

10. Finally, I believe it’s an advantage to teach yourself how to be psychologically comfortable while, ‘hiding behind your own muzzle'. (Which, also, requires knowing how to fire accurately by taking a low hold on the target and firing with an elevated front sight.) Me? I always try to hold on the base of the target’s neck.

Which equates to: (1) A rapid low hold on the target, (2) with the top of an elevated front sight placed on the juncture between the target’s neck and torso. I trust you realize that nobody can ever be truly good with a pistol unless he - either consciously or unconsciously - knows how to eliminate the horizontal axis from the gun sight’s picture equation. (Most pistoleros teach themselves how to do this subconsciously.)



NOTE: These are typical 17/18 yard targets for my friend and me:

http://imageshack.us/a/img132/5269/et6x.jpg.

45 ACP, Glock Model 21 pistols just as fast as they would go, 'Bang!' from reset.

 

[9MMare]

I question this sequence.

At 15 yards it may make more sense to just run off as fast as possible and forget even trying to draw, much less shooting, or trying to maintain some aspect to a potential foe.

My guess is that in most cases you are less likely to die from running away and have a very good chance of getting away clean.

getting into a fire fight is a good way to get dead.

your chances of hitting someone that far away while one or both are in motion is pretty low.

your potential assailant's chances of hitting you while you are running away is low. chances are if you run off he is not going to bother to either chase you or shoot at you.

Yes. This has been broken down actually, into percentages, for women in jeopardy of abduction. I no longer have a link but this is what I teach my nieces to support "Never ever get into the car! (or go with the assailant)"

The breakdown went something like this:

100%

50% Odds that they are committed to shooting (because of noise or calling attention or or lack of 'guts'.)

25% Odds that they expect you to resist and will react quickly.

12.5% Odds that they have competency with their gun and average targeting skills.

6% Odds that they can hit a moving target.

3% Odds that if they hit you, the shot will be fatal.

I dont really remember how the percentages break down but the progression seems reasonable.

Edit: I believe the final 'percentage' was 12%...so that is significant. But it's up to the person involved to weigh and better than alot of outcomes.