Drinking Alcoholic Beverages While Armed.

[DAVIDSDIVAD]

No, I'm not. Why do you project such statements onto me? My reason to go to the bar are irrelevant. My ACTIONS while there (or anywhere) are how I should be judged.

The commercials that state "buzz driving is drunk driving" are there for a reason.


Alcohol is a drug, that will have an effect the moment it hits your system.


The alcohol doesn't wait in your belly until there's enough to get you drunk, and then bind in your system all at once.

It's a curved progression, man.


There is no magic delineation between drunk and not drunk or excess and not in excess.


Go look up ED50 response curve, sam.

 

[Sam1911]

I have several local examples.
...

I assure you it does happen enough.

You have three examples of violent criminal behavior. Deserving of the full penalty of law. Are you falling into the same trap that VPC and HCI try to catch people in? That it was the GUN's fault, or the BEER's fault?

Would those execrable excuses for citizens have gone on to be safe and sane members of society without that drink or that gun?

No one here would say such a thing.

NOW, AGAIN, WHERE WERE THE GUNS IN THE HANDS OF THE GOOD GUYS? Why could they not resist violent attack? Was it because they were GOOD people following the law, with their hands tied?

Shame on a law, and the legislators who wrote it, that would strip a person of their ability to resist such attacks anywhere, any time!

As for you maybe you are the 5 percent that goes and gets a beer and leaves.

So you live in a place where 95% go get smashed AND violent?

Of course not. Even the drunks are generally, for the most part peaceable. Guns or no guns.

And every one is responsible for his own actions and his own safety / self-defense.

-Sam

 

[ArmedBear]

BTW I worked at a bar once.

Bars are NOT a good place to get a rational perception of mankind, even if they're just "social" places.

If someone has worked at bars for 20 years, I would take his judgment with a grain of salt. Yes, bars DO attract losers and addicts. Doesn't mean everyone who has a drink is either one, per my other post.

Bars just give you a distorted view of people, and those who work in them for too long tend to see humanity as much uglier and dumber than we really are -- with good reason.

 

[Eric F]

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the real, hard statistics still show automobiles as being the number one causes of death; especially with regards to alcohol.

Correct but how many times is that an accident as oposes to intentional? My arguement with the gun as a tool is in relation to a confrontation. Not an accident.

 

[Sam1911]

I'm not totally sure if carrying and handling are the same thing...

Now we come to a MEATY matter! "Carrying" or possession of a thing, and "Using" the thing are different!

You are NEVER allowed to USE your gun in a public place (ranges aside) UNLESS there is an immediate need to do so to save a life.

I contend that USING a gun while drunk is a bad idea. BUT there are times when my need to USE that gun to defend my life or those of my family, TRUMP the risk of doing so while intoxicated.

If the law would prohibit simple possession of my gun in a bar (or while having a beer) then it will make me UNABLE to react appropriately in the most dire emergency situations where what I'd normally want to or be allowed to do have gone out the window.

I do not ask for the right to SHOOT my gun in a bar in normal situations. I simply do not want to be disarmed should my NEED to shoot that gun override every norm of social behavior. I.E.: when called upon to prevent violent death.

-Sam

 

[Eric F]

NOW, AGAIN, WHERE WERE THE GUNS IN THE HANDS OF THE GOOD GUYS?

in example 2 the 18 year old was legaly armed and did engage in the gun fight, he just lost.

Any way this is good conversation but again When do your rights to be armed and drink compromise my safety?

 

[Eric F]

Well here is a whole new perspective

I forgot to let everyone know that in Pennsylvania, it is legal to carry in establishments that sell, and serve alcohol. Restaurants, bars, liquor stores, whatever. It is legal to drink while carrying. There is no restriction on BAC while carrying.

Sam1911
Member



Join Date: October 22, 2007
Location: Central PA
Posts: 1,708

If the law would prohibit simple possession of my gun in a bar (or while having a beer) then it will make me UNABLE to react appropriately in the most dire emergency situations where what I'd normally want to or be allowed to do have gone out the window.

Sam1911 why are you debating this its a non issue for you?

 

[ArmedBear]

Any way this is good conversation but again When do your rights to be armed and drink compromise my safety?

I think that it's right about the same point as drinking and driving. That's how Idaho's law works, and I can't say I oppose it.

What I think is stupid is that some people think that a drink is the same as "drunk" or, for that matter, "drinking".

 

[RS14]

I do not ask for the right to SHOOT my gun in a bar in normal situations. I simply do not want to be disarmed should my NEED to shoot that gun override every norm of social behavior. I.E.: when called upon to prevent violent death.

Then don't drink.

You may think you're a reasonable drinker, and that may be true, but frankly I'll never trust you nor anyone else to drink and carry at the same time. It's like the assumption that the gun is always loaded--inconvenient, overly-broad, and meant to be respected regardless because otherwise someone will sooner or later manage to screw up in a very bad way.

 

[TexasBill]

I seldom drink at all but, when I do, my rule of thumb is no more alcoholic beverages than I have thumbs. If I am carrying, the rule is zero alcoholic beverages. If something happens, I don't want there to be even the slightest question of impaired judgement.

 

[Sam1911]

Again you make good points. Your rights should be carried out. But at what point does you right to be armed and drink interfear with my safety?

Exactly at the same place it does when I'm stone sober and congratulations for NAILING my point!

I didn't check my right to life at the door, and someone else's inability to handle their alcohol does NOT infringe on my right to bear arms in defense of my life or that of my loved ones.

And, once more with feeling: Many people have pointed out some GREAT examples of WHY I carry, in bars and out. How many stories of violent criminal behavior will it take for folks to accept that they have a RIGHT, and even a DUTY, to resist it? Isn't it ironic? How could it be that here, at THR NO LESS(!), we would accept the state telling us that sometimes we can't be trusted, or that some places are "too dangerous" for us to be allowed to carry the means of our defense?

PREPOSTEROUS!

-Sam

 

[RS14]

I didn't check my right to life at the door, and someone else's inability to handle their alcohol does NOT infringe on my right to bear arms in defense of my life or that of my loved ones.
-Sam

Of course it doesn't. It infringes on your "right" to consume alcohol. It's not as if we're shoving it down your throat.

 

[Sam1911]

Then don't drink.

That is one answer. And many good folks do choose that road. I don't personally, but you can't be faulted for doing so.

You may think you're a reasonable drinker, and that may be true, but frankly I'll never trust you nor anyone else to drink and carry at the same time.

Fortunately, for about 650,000 Pennsylvanians, you didn't write the law! Ha ha! (No offense intended!)

-Sam

 

[Tinpig]

it's just wrong to enter a bar while armed

Not a problem with a Massachusetts concealed carry permit if you're not drinking.

It is reckless and immoral to allow one drop of an alcoholic beverage to pass the lips while armed

Not necessarily reckless, and certainly not immoral.

Just poor judgement in my opinion. If a guy was drinking beer at my range while shooting, I'd pack up and leave. Who can say how much is too much? Definitely not the guy drinking.

I know alcohol impairs my judgement, spatial awareness, and balance, so I don't drive, use or carry firearms or chainsaws, climb on ladders, scaffolding, or roofs if I'm drinking. Period.

It's something we all have to figure out for ourselves.

Tinpig

 

[Blackbeard]

No drinking while armed. Period. Drinking impairs judgement and judgement is what is critical while carrying. Impaired judgement also leads to more drinking.

Don't think of it as a restriction on your right to carry. Think of it as a restriction on your right to drink.

 

[Maverick223]

No offence but this is a horrible topic. My thoughts are as follows:

1. You should not be permitted to carry while intoxicated.
2. You should not be allowed to carry within any establishment that serves alcohol without food.
3. You should be allowed to carry in all places that distribute and sell alcohol where it is not consumed (Convenience store, Super WW, et al).

But I believe that the problem is enforcing the above...the lines between the above circumstances are destined to become blurred. Personally I would be satisfied if NC would allow concealed carry in establishments that sell but not serve alcohol...it is just stupid that I have to leave the pistol in the car at the local Wal-Mart.

 

[ArmedBear]

It is reckless and immoral to allow one drop of an alcoholic beverage to pass the lips while armed

Again, if you can't have a glass of Meritage with your steak without ending up lying in the gutter covered in puke, then that's true.

But if you CAN, then that's a truly childish statement.

Teetotalers tend to be as childish in their attitudes as habitual drunks. Either way, grow up.

 

[FROGO207]

Some of the views expressed in this thread are the basis for why I for one stay out of bars and don't drink anymore. Personally I do not like to be out of control, of MY actions anyway. I like stacking the odds in my favor whenever I can. We are after all a civilized society, we should all act accordingly.

 

[Sam1911]

in example 2 the 18 year old was legaly armed and did engage in the gun fight, he just lost.

Good on him for trying. Unfortunately, there are no guarantees in a gun fight. I'm sure he did his best. And I'm sure he was glad for the chance to resist.

If the law had been so that he had to be unarmed, what if the cop simply beat him to death. Death by blunt trauma happens a LOT. There is no such thing as "just a fist-fight." Any blow can be deadly. And who's to say that the cop would have been disarmed?

Remember, anyone who would MURDER another person is awfully unlikely to hesitate long over some statutory prohibition against carrying a weapon into a bar.

"Golly, I was going to go KILL that guy. But the law does say I can't carry this GUN in the bar. Darn it... I guess I'll have to let him live!"

-Sam

 

[ArmedBear]

Personally I do not like to be out of control, of MY actions anyway.

Same here. Since I don't even want to be out of control, I can be trusted with a glass of wine and a gun.

 

[Eric F]

Thanks for avoiding the answer to the question sam.

I guess some folks just dont get it.

I didn't check my right to life at the door, and someone else's inability to handle their alcohol does NOT infringe on my right to bear arms in defense of my life or that of my loved ones.

ok and so when is your safety compromised because of some one elses drinking? When they get loud? When they lose their balance and bump into you? When they have a diffrence in opinion than you? When?

Bottom line. I agree we all have a right to be armed. I also dont like the fact that some folks are armed sober let alone when they are drunk or getting there. You cant fix stupid! And drinking makes inteligent folks STUPID!

 

[NMGonzo]

I dryfire while sipping on a glass of red wine at home.

Sue me.

 

[ArmedBear]

drinking makes inteligent folks STUPID!

Generally, it makes stupid people act on their stupidity. I don't avoid bars because I don't like drunks. I avoid bars because I don't like idiots. Smart people can be a lot of fun with a few drinks (and no loaded firearms).

But can we differentiate between a drink with dinner and a night spent at the bar?

I dryfire while sipping on a glass of red wine at home.

Sue me.

I shoot a blank pistol in the back yard while drinking a beer, or whiskey and soda. (I'm training my dog, not trying to scare the neighbors.)

THAT is something I avoid... Carrying a real revolver and a blank-firing revolver at the same time.

 

[Eric F]

No offence but this is a horrible topic.

Hence the reason every other alcohol related thread in the past has been locked. IBTL! folks.

 

[Sam1911]

Sam1911 why are you debating this its a non issue for you?

You mean because my Commonwealth doesn't prohibit carrying while drinking or in bars?

I'm arguing the point because I think a big part of our job here at THR is to dissect the reasoning behind gun laws and get to the meat of why a law is written the way it is, what need it claims to address, whether it is successful at addressing that law, and whether, in the end, the law SHOULD be so.

We are full CITIZENS, right? We don't have to look at the law and simply dissect WHAT it says. We have the right to question the law, research the realities and the results of the law, and petition our legislators to change, strengthen, improve, or abolish said law.

This stuff isn't handed down by a king or deity. Laws are made by men. Men with goals and motives and plans for reelection -- and a responsibility to their constituents. That's us!

In my sheltered little view of the world, THR is a bastion of 2nd Amendment freedom. I want to see every issue that touches on that freedom examined and either embraced or discarded.

Personally, I think laws that prohibit law-abiding citizens from going armed ANYWHERE are an abomination against nature's law, and it's time this one went on the ash heap!

Mmmm'k?

-Sam