Drinking Alcoholic Beverages While Armed.

[Sam1911]

The fact that several states allow carry and consumption and yet have exactly the same rates of permit revocations as states that are zero-tolerance absolutely proves the fact that such laws are worthless in "reducing risk". As in driving, crime or anything else, safe people are safe in all things, alcohol involved or not.

Punish those who actually commit crimes, not those who "might, maybe, cause I don't happen to like their decisions".

See, THIS is the very heart of the discussion. It floors me how many would desire to see a law on the books to judge, convict, and strip the freedom from anyone who would carry an object while over some arbitrary level of BAC -- when that law CAN NOT in ANY way be shown to address a social need.

The mind wobbles.

-Sam

 

[Sam1911]

You had one beer at the game and were robbed in the parking lot at knife point by a crack head as he grabbed your wife killing the guy. His wife sues you because you were .02 BAC and claims thats the reason you couldnt make a good decision that he would never have REALLY stabbed you, he just needed money for his drugs and would have left you alone. She wins and now you are homeless and penniless because of the civil suit.

Once more, for the kewpie doll, I'd rather live to face the jury and the civil case, than be stabbed to death. Every one who defends themself faces the same risks, under the spread of mitigating and confounding circumstances that were present at the time of the incident. But those risks are far outweighed by my desire not to bleed out on the pavement.

-Sam

 

[renegade1alpha]

Alcohol + gun = stupidity. Answer...NO!. Period.

If you shoot someone either accidentally or on purpose and you have had even one drink, the greif that will befall you in court will be unimaginable. I've already seen it happen.

By the way, I never drink anywhere but at home. And if I am at dinner somewhere and Im carrying, I don't drink. If I know Im going to drink (i.e my birthday at Red Lobster consuming a couple dirty vodka martinis) I dont carry. If the place gets robbed and they want my money, they can have it. I will just be the best (although inebreated) witness I can be.

I don't drink, not even one, when I drive so I certainly won't drink and carry a gun.

 

[Sam1911]

The off-duty cop shot several times hitting the man at least once--the man was not badly injured. The cop was tried in criminal court and his alcohol intake was definitely a factor in the trial. He managed to escape being convicted--primarily due to good legal help. He was on unpaid leave for the two years that it took for him to have his day in court. He lost his job after serving 16 years as an officer and there is currently a civil suit pending.
...
The only thing the case proves is that alcohol consumption definitely CAN and probably will be a factor if one is subsequently involved in a deadly force confrontation.

Sure -- that's a risk we all face if we carry. But, again, it irrelevant to the legal question.

Should the law have required that he be defenseless in the face of that (possibly armed) thief?

The man suffered a LOT because of his decisions that day. Many of us here would fault him (were he NOT a cop, I suppose) for pursuing a criminal who'd merely stolen a possession. But, he's ALIVE. Some of us would remain thankful for that.

-Sam

 

[Sam1911]

If you shoot someone either accidentally or on purpose and you have had even one drink, the greif that will befall you in court will be unimaginable.

Heck, I'm with you! I'd prefer to just die there on the floor of the bar than try to deal with the grief in court. There's something so glamorous about trying to pull a broken bottle out of my throat while the barstools above me gradually fade to black... MUCH better than living to sit through an inquest or trial!

[Sigh.]

-Sam

 

[qajaq59]

By its nature, alcohol impairs ones ability to KNOW if one's impaired.

Unfortunately that is true. So if you drink and carry you may end up as Buba's bunk mate. That alone would get me to do my drinking at home!

 

[SuperNaut]

I took the liberty of formatting your post for readability

OTCs CAN impair people, but in different ways than alcohol can.

For instance, Some cough medicines act on the opioid receptors in huge doses, but you never get to that response, since that's what the labels are for. Alcohols, on the other hand, can effect dopamine and endorphin actions. These are two very different things happening in your body.

Behavior =/= sleepiness, that's how, guys. Also, the variation in effect between people is extreme when compared to OTCs. I'm assuming alcohol has a very wide spread ED50 response curve. (some people hold liquor better than others). That's why someone can have 1 beer and be experience a great effect, while some can drink 20 beers and be more or less sober (one of my professors weighed 100 pounds soaking wet, and she could down about 30 beers and be only buzzed). It's just a weak argument to say "neener neener, you can't take nyquil and carry a gun if I can't drink and carry a gun"

P.S. Unloved, that sounds like something worth mentioning to your pharmacist

I'm not saying "DONT DRINK AT ALL!." What I am saying is "err on the side of safety," have 1 less drink than you would if you weren't carrying.

That's a really roundabout way of agreeing with me. I've only been talking about impairment, I don't care how you got that way.

 

[Deanimator]

So....if he was out in public he should...what? Die?

He should choose between drinking in public and being able to defend himself.

If it's a HARD choice, he's got a problem, and it's not gun related.

 

[youngda9]

I agree 100% with TS.

In states where it is legal to carry into bars, there is no problem. There is your answer. Of course there are always exceptions to the rule. But the permit holders are a much more law abiding people as a whole, this has been proven.

 

[inherentical]

The neoprohibitionist attitude sickens me, much like all the other "We know what's best for you" style proclamations that certain other groups have been known to make. If a beer or two disorients you enough that you fear in your ability to make a rational decision, fine. You know your limits. Don't impose them on other people.

 

[MisterMike]

I don't have nearly enough time at the moment to read all the posts in this thread, but, as always, I think it's valuable to share our thoughts. Sometimes the opinions here have caused me to reconsider my thinking with regard to a touchy subject.

First, I'm not a heavy drinker and I generally drink only wine (yes, I know that, roughly speaking, 1 wine = 1 beer = 1 shot). The upper limit of my drinking is two drinks in an evening (whether it's wine or something else). I don't claim to be morally superior, but as an ex-cop and a prosecutor I've seen enough bad things arise out of alcohol abuse to know that excessive alcohol consumption is always a bad idea. Also, I just don't like the feeling of being intoxicated.

I've pretty carefully considered the question of what activities I will engage in while or after having anything to drink. As far as carrying is concerned, my upper limit is one drink per hour, topping out at two drinks. Some of you, I see, think that this is a terrible idea, evidencing a lack of judgment and maturity. That's fine, and I applaud you for your own self-restraint.

But, as with many things related to safety, I think there's a reasonable balance that can be drawn. First, there is the generally slim, but ever-present, possibility of having to defend yourself or a loved one from a potentially deadly assault. The odds of that--at least in my life--seem to be pretty much unchanged by whether or not I've had something to drink: I don't go to different neighborhoods and I don't alter my behavior.

Most importantly, I am quite certain that I do not drink to the point where my judgment or inhibitions are impaired or altered. I do recognize the danger that, in the unlikely event I would have to use a weapon to defend myself at such a time, an unscupulous lawyer or public official might try to take advantage of that fact to cast me as a villain. But, I think the chances of that happening are about equally high even if I've had nothing to drink.

So, that's where I draw the line--I don't claim that it's the only right conclusion, only that I feel comfortable in having considered the relative risks and benefits of my decisions, and have come to what I think is a reasonable approach to the issue.

 

[JohnBT]

"Is that why under long standing FAA rules a commercial pilot is considered intoxicated and in violation at 0.02 -- about one drink?"

So the FAA says it's okay for commercial pilots to drink and fly. Well folks, there we have it, a little alcohol in your system is okay when performing complicated activities involving life and death.

Fwiw, according to the Virginia State Police, at my weight I can drink 4 beers in 2 hours and be legal to drive. I probably wouldn't, but it's nice to know they think I can.

John

 

[dieselkanic]

Pretty much every drunk I ever knew didn't think he or she was "out of control", even when they were ranting incoherently.

Or they somehow become 'entitled' to say and/or do things they would never say/do when sober. Even after 'just' one or two...

JMHO

 

[Sam1911]

He should choose between drinking in public and being able to defend himself.

If it's a HARD choice, he's got a problem, and it's not gun related.

Really? I'm surprised you would say that. As, for many of us that would mean completely curtailing an otherwise harmless and personally beneficial activity. I do not choose to go out in public disarmed (whenever legal) so I would therefore, NEVER be able to enjoy a drink in public under any circumstances.

That is an unreasonable restriction, to me. I cannot agree with you, if that's your perspective.

-Sam

 

[JohnBT]

"As a Student pharmacist, I facepalmed when I read this.

comparing OTCs and alcohol is like comparing apples and papayas "

You have a great deal left to learn. For me, the major problem OTC is any type of antihistamine. Toss in OTC codeine cough syrup too, although the local pharmacies don't carry the 4 ounce you-can-sign-for-a-bottle stuff much anymore.

Either one of those 2 ingredients induce a zombie state I refer to as sitting-and-watching-the-channel-guide-roll-by. I can't even read or remember why I walked from one room to another. Forget driving or working.

A couple of beers doesn't do that to me.

John

 

[jimmyraythomason]

It's pretty simple to me. If you drink that is your business. If you carry that too is your business. If you drink while you are carrying that is the business of everyone around you. No matter how well I know you,if you are drinking and armed at the same time,I no longer trust your ability to make wise decisions.

 

[JohnBT]

Forgot, speaking of meds. I had a client drive to my office last week. She had this huge bottle of percocet. How big you ask? It was at least twice the size, or larger, of the biggest ones I had 6 years ago when I had back surgery and I was getting 70 at a time. Hey, when you're taking 16 a day they give you a lot. Didn't help. (And I quit cold turkey, hated the stuff.)

The morphine drip for 2.5 days in the hospital didn't help either. Unsticking the sciatic nerve root from the vertebra and trying to make it round again helped quite a bit - eventually.

No wonder she couldn't halfway function on the employment tests and such that I gave her. She'd been taking the stuff for 12 months or so. Scary. But she was still driving.

But I'm a bigger mess on antihistamines.

John

 

[Sam1911]

It's pretty simple to me. If you drink that is your business. If you carry that too is your business. If you drink while you are carrying that is the business of everyone around you.

No, it ISN'T. (Concealed is concealed, remember?) It becomes the "business" of everyone around you if you (and/or those around you) are attacked violently. Up to that point, you're simply in possession of an intert object, and that's NO ONE's business but yours.

No matter how well I know you,if you are drinking and armed at the same time,I no longer trust your ability to make wise decisions.

Certainly you do not say that being armed modifies someone's ability to make wise decisions. You mean to say, "if you are drinking ... I no longer trust your ability to make wise decisions." Which is absurd, as you are legal to drink and drive, up to a point. A pilot is legal to drink and FLY, up to a point. Obviously, the mere presence of alcohol in one's system does not rob them of their ability to make wise decisions. And questions of "how much is o.k." have been demonstrated to be so subject to physiology and circumstance as to be rendered moot.

In the end, it doesn't even matter. Your actions should be judged, not your possessions, nor what you might, could do. If you need to defend your life NOW against threat of violent death, you will be judged for the rightness or wrongness of those actions. The law should not strip you of the opportunity to LIVE to see your trial.

-Sam

 

[Artiz]

Drinking and firearms is a no go.

 

[Yo Mama]

I'm surprised at the lack of personal responsibility from alot of folks here. Alcohol affects people differently. With that in mind, STOP TAKING MY RIGHTS BECAUSE OTHERS ARE STUPID!

I'm so fricking sick and tired of hearing on this forum from people who don't really give a damn about me, but instead only care about themselves, which is what you're doing if you made a judgement that I can't drink and defend myself. Why would I lose that right? *** are you thinking?

 

[Yo Mama]

Drinking and firearms is a no go.

For you fine, DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO! Are you going to protect my family while I drink a beer?

 

[Sam1911]

Drinking and firearms is a no go.

Thank you for contributing. Perhaps it would benefit you to read some of the preceeding 9 pages to determine if, maybe, the issue deserves to be commented on with a touch more depth. Please do post your thoughts once you've grappled with the less superficial arguements herin.

Thanks!

-Sam

 

[unloved]

I'm surprised at the lack of personal responsibility from alot of folks here.

As am I. Pretty much everyone here claims to be a champion of liberty and personal responsibility. Strange...

 

[Artiz]

Yeah, sure. Just like drinking and driving, it is a no go.
If you need me to explain why I say it is a no go, you've got yourself a problem.

Drinking alone at home while armed is ok, in a public place with people and interactions, it's a bad idea.
Drink with your buddies in the middle of nowhere while armed is ok if everybody is mentally healthy, the problem is in public places, not everybody is mentally healthy and stable, that can bring some problems.

Don't tell me that I am telling you what to do, that is retarded. Seriously.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

Sam1911,I said exactly what I intended to say. If you are using anything that can impair your judgement and consequently your actions while in possesion of a potentially lethal weapon,(and in close proximity of other people) then to me, your judgement is become suspect.