Have you heard of "Swatting"?

[we are not amused]

Just a rhetorical question. Law enforcement is now a paramilitary activity, with Jack booted thugs breaking down doors in the middle of the night with "no knock" raids. Did you know that the Dept. of Education has it's own S.W.A.T. Team?http://www.news10.net/news/article/141108/2/Questions-surround-feds-raid-of-Stockton-home

 

[USAF_Vet]

Law enforcement is now a paramilitary activity, with Jack booted thugs breaking down doors in the middle of the night with "no knock" raids.

There are a lot of current and former LEO's on this site, and that does not describe the majority.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

if someone has time to get rid of all the damning evidence in that short amount of time.....chances are its not worth the time, money, and effort to call in a swat team.

Our local SWAT just had a fun time yesterday sealing off a neighborhood and bean bagging a guy because he loudly argued with his girlfriend (who pressed charges of some sort) He had home made spears, swords, shuriken, knives, but no firearms.
There are some good measured LEO responses here, but you can't count on your locals to be what the best SWAT teams are.
They took a guy that had a domestic argument and escalated it to cordoning off the streets and doing gas and entry work. He got beanbagged for "swinging a sword around" in his own home alone while they were observing.
So... it's possible that all departments aren't equal. Some have knuckleheads. Some are supervised by knuckleheads. And, some, when "swatted", will come in charging.

I'm not overly worried about them being spoofed since the standard line is that they're "highly trained". I'm more worried about the local La Mara creeps spoofing me and dressing up like SWAT so they can enter and get the drop, as they've done in various places already. Look at the linked article pic. Helmet, mask, vest, gray tshirt, all stuff easily acquired.
So, now I have to know the difference between the SWAT guys and the posers, not shoot on entry, but then take a chance on it being home invaders and let them get the drop on me. That's a tactical conundrum, for sure.
Choices, choices.

 

[Mike1234567]

Did you know that the Dept. of Education has it's own S.W.A.T. Team?http://www.news10.net/news/article/141108/2/Questions-surround-feds-raid-of-Stockton-home

How else are they to deal with all those dangerous truants?

 

[we are not amused]

There are a lot of current and former LEO's on this site, and that does not describe the majority.

I am not saying it does anymore than the idiot officer in Canton, Ohio describes all police officers. Nor am I saying there may not be a need for S.W.A.T. Teams in some circumstances, especially when there is a hostage situation. But when the first response is a paramilitary one, when there is not a confirmed need, I think things have gone too far.
As I first posted, "What ever happened to knocking on the door"?
Why is the first response a paramilitary one?
Kicking my door down in the middle of the night is not good public relations!
Once about ten years ago, at about 2:30 in the morning, I was awakened by a pounding on the door by the local sheriff. It seems they had gotten an incomplete 911 call that seemed to have come from my residence. Since I was living alone at the time, and I don't think my telephone rang on it's own, I assume it was computer glitch. He looked around, and didn't seem to take my grumpiness personally, and left. It might have gone much worse if he had broke down my door in the middle of the night, because I was sleeping with a gun on the nightstand at the time due to a number of break ins in the area.
What does the Dept. of Education really need a S.W.A.T. Team for?

 

[Fred Fuller]

Folks,

This one is getting pretty bedraggled and awfully far from home. I've left the thread strictly alone so far in spite of the mistreatment it's received but it's getting close to getting put out of its misery if it doesn't get led back on track and on topic for ST&T.

lpl

 

[AlexanderA]

It seems to me that the likelihood of an innocent family's home being broken into by a SWAT team (because of erroneous information, a prank call, or whatever) is much greater than the likelihood of that same home being broken into by "home invasion" criminals. I remember the Ken Ballou case many years ago when the guy was paralyzed for life after resisting "home invaders" that turned out to be ATF agents. I see news stories all the time about drug raids gone bad; home invasions, not so much.

This calls into question the strategy of reaching for a HD gun as soon as you hear breaking glass. Your survival chances might be a lot better if, instead, you can retreat to an interior room and call the police from there. Failing that, statistically, your chances might be better if you just put your hands up rather than reach for a gun. Just sayin'. HD firearms might be more useful if you have a longer advance warning of trouble.

 

[49north]

Myself and two of my neighbors have been swatted in the past few years.
In each occasion a disgruntled neighbor dropped a dime and lied. Since weapons were mentioned a show of force was called out. Lots of fun!!!

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

Seems like a few minutes of recon would save a whole lot of trouble (and possibly deaths/lawsuits/etc).

 

[zxcvbob]

This calls into question the strategy of reaching for a HD gun as soon as you hear breaking glass. Your survival chances might be a lot better if, instead, you can retreat to an interior room and call the police from there. Failing that, statistically, your chances might be better if you just put your hands up rather than reach for a gun. Just sayin'. HD firearms might be more useful if you have a longer advance warning of trouble.

Not really, it calls into question the whole notion of LEO's bursting in without presenting a warrant first, so the occupants can't immediately tell the difference between them and "common" criminal invaders.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

It is a waste of Tax payer dollars and the DA should have the police track down the liers and put them in jail for filing a false report.

 

[AlexanderA]

"No knock" raids are a fact of life (we can thank the War on Drugs for that). We can wish that the police would show warrants in all cases, and identify themselves more than 5 seconds before breaking down the door, but it won't always happen. I keep thinking about Kenyon Ballou, who (40 years ago)jumped out of the shower and tried to defend himself with a cap and ball revolver against ATF agents who were bursting into his apartment based on wrong information, only to be shot and paralyzed for life. Considering the frequency of such misdirected police raids, and the rarity of actual home invasion crimes, the better part of wisdom might be not to try to use a gun in the initial stages of such an attack. Hide it someplace and see what develops.

 

[armoredman]

I'm sorry, I KNOW there is no legitimate reason for any SWAT team to be bursting into my home at any time of day or night, so any sounds of home invasion will be treated as such. I have dogs and such, and I am not LIKELY to be taken completely unawares by a dynamic entry, or even the setup to one - my dogs territorial instincts go beyond the front dog, and they have REALLY good hearing. The chance of being "swatted" is FAR less likely than suffering a real home invasion, an already unlikely event. So, for that reason among many, I will not adopt a "surrender" tactic during this event.

 

[daorhgih]

Fortress ??

Is it possible to make an existing house -- single-floor, 3BR, 2-entrance, bungalow -- impregnable, at least for 30-minutes? Is it considered "fair" to booby-trap a door w/ less-lethal armament? ALSO @ vxvbob: Yeah, when I think about that 9-wks now it seems years long, and long ago. Instinct never dies. Now at 7-decades the mind can't rest, and wonders why the body won't respond. My good points: I share my goods, and I'm still a damned good shot w/ an M-14, when I can find one.

 

[we are not amused]

A couple of people have advocated complete subservience to armed home invasions, for fear that it might be a police raid. I remember the "Wichita Massacre" in Dec. of 2000. When two brothers, recently released from Jail went on a deadly crime spree culminating on the night of Dec 14, when they invaded a home where 5 people were holding a Christmas party. They were raped, robbed and shot execution style. One survived.http://www.wichita-massacre.com/

Don't think complete subservience served them very well, (not blaming them, they were taken by surprise, and didn't have much choice).

Perhaps this thread properly belongs in the "activism" forum, as it seems the best way to prevent an errant S.W.A.T. Team raid is to reduce the number of such raids and raise the threshold for such a raid to be considered. That requires political activism.

The police have an obligation to announce their presence. Sadly this sometimes does not happen, again, this require political/legal activism to force a change of the rules, or to ensure they are enforced.

If you have time or opportunity to identify an errant S.W.A.T. Team for what it is, one should of course, surrender, and sue the heck out of them in court.

If we merely consider how to respond to an armed home invasion, that is simple! Shoot as many of them as you can, as fast as you can. Tactics are how best to accomplish this.

Considering tactics and strategies against an armed home invasion, a dog would probably be a good idea, even one of those little yappity dogs would be quite capable of giving warning. Some training of the dog might be required. Keeping a weapon close to hand would be another. They make holsters for beds, so you don't have to keep it under the pillow or on a night stand. Carrying around the house can be a bit inconvenient, stashing guns where they are convenient to reach is a solution, but depends a lot on if there are young children present or not. There are various types of ready access safes available.

 

[M-Cameron]

Is it possible to make an existing house -- single-floor, 3BR, 2-entrance, bungalow -- impregnable, at least for 30-minutes? Is it considered "fair" to booby-trap a door w/ less-lethal armament? ALSO @ vxvbob: Yeah, when I think about that 9-wks now it seems years long, and long ago. Instinct never dies. Now at 7-decades the mind can't rest, and wonders why the body won't respond. My good points: I share my goods, and I'm still a damned good shot w/ an M-14, when I can find one.

is it possible.....sure..........is it someplace ide want to live......well, unless you find bomb shelters comfortable....then no.

the best thing you can do is buy quality doors and locks....

...ditch the screws that come with everything, and buy longer screws....

motion activated lights are always a plus

 

[MyGreenGuns]

Would SWAT identify themselves?

(In the extreme unlikelyhood this would ever happen to me)
The biggest worry for me is if they properly identify themselves or not. I have a dog that would be barking anytime the gravel crunches. (I would wake from the barking) He would go crazy when the door broke open. (I would grab the shotgun next to my bed) My dog is a pitbull, they would shoot him on sight. (Hearing the gunshot, I would KNOW whomever here is intending to harm me, I would cycle the shotgun)

This is the point where it could all go bad.

If they entered yelling, "POLICE! SHOW ME YOUR HANDS!" I would lay down arms and turn on the lights and stand with hands up.

If they entered and just started clearing my house, I would be bunkered up watching the door (of my bedroom). Dial 911 quickly and put it on speaker (to keep both hands on gun). When my bedroom door was kicked open, I would have only seconds to illuminate my target with the shotgun light and decide if to fire. If they were clearly marked SWAT in big white letters on the chest, I would not fire (I would most likely be shot for holding a weapon). If they were just dressed in black, one might assume home invasion. I would open fire, and be killed in return.

Im building my new place with security in mind. There are no windows on the lower floor, only 2 doors on bottom floor, my bedroom is at the end of a long skinny hall on the 2nd floor.

I kind of blew this thread off when I first read it, but have been thinking about it recently.

 

[Kliegl]

It's worth noting that, if the SWAT team breaks into your house, and it's the wrong house, then they just committed a criminal act.

I think the only real solution is fortify the home and have a gate that, when breached, sounds an alarm in the house, plus maybe a free roaming dog inside the gated perimeter.

 

[AlexanderA]

These no-knock SWAT raids are 99% related to the War on Drugs. We need to rethink the drug policy in this country -- there's too much collateral damage. Besides, the fact that drugs are illegal means that there's a black market in them. That in turn causes things like narco-terrorism and the situation in Mexico. The problem in Mexico is not caused by American guns flowing south of the border, but by American demand for drugs that flow north of the border. Treat drug use as a public-health issue, not as a criminal issue.

 

[Averageman]

As far as covering up the evidence goes why not just call the Guy's from water and sewer and pop the manhole cover and catch the evidence as it comes down the drain?

 

[Mike1234567]

Legalize all drugs... tax the "domestic sales"... use the tax revenues to "educate the public" like they did against smoking.

 

[Kevin Rohrer]

There may be a discussion on whether we as citizens, and especially armed citizens, can prepare for such an event?

I'd be more concerned about being struck by lightning than this possibility.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Good night, sweet thread
And flights of angels sing thee to thy rest.

Threads die when members ignore posted warnings (Post 30) and insist on dragging them off topic repeatedly. One more time, this is not Legal and Political, it is Strategies, Tactics and Training. It is not our aim to discuss or advocate the change of laws or policies here. There are other places on THR for that sort of thing.

lpl