EAA Witness pistols

[General Geoff]

Recently I've been looking into getting a 10mm auto pistol, but manufacturers that still make them are few and far between. One person suggested EAA Witness, as they make a double stack, 15+1 round 10mm auto pistol for under $500 MSRP brand new. This strikes me as very.. inexpensive, and I was wondering if anyone else had experience with these guns, and whether they're worth looking at. Otherwise I might need to get a Para Ordnance P16-40 and convert it to 10mm.

 

[ARTiger]

The Witness is a good gun. It's a clone of the CZ 75 made in Italy by Tanfoglio Bros. Finish is a bit rough IMO on the basic models. They do make one called a "stock" that's anything but (much better finish) and also an "elite" version. These are pricier, but worth it.

BTW: EAA is just the stateside distributor, and they're the major downside to the guns. Their customer service if you should ever need to use it is simply terrible.

 

[twinhairdryers]

If you have ever shot a CZ, or most Baretta's, you will like the EAA Witness series. Nice shooting, confortable, low recoil guns. Not sure why anyone would pursue a slowly dying ammo caliber, but the Witness and the Tangfolios in general are great guns.

 

[Warren]

I've shot a rental, it handled well but it had light loads so I don't know how recoil would be with Double Tap type loads.

Distributors are out just now, but there are a few at Gunbroker and Gunsamerica.


I e-mailed EAA about when the 10s would be in, the response was "sometime in June".

 

[roscoe]

Not sure why anyone would pursue a slowly dying ammo caliber, but the Witness and the Tangfolios in general are great guns.

Well, I would say the reverse, but anyway, you should check the 10mm forums for discussion of the 10mm Witness. Most folks love them, some have trouble. One problem is that if you have to return them for service, EAA sucks. The guns, by Tanfoglio are basically good, but the distributor EAA is the problem. One specific problem I have heard of is that an occasional slide cracks from the heavy 10mm loads, but stronger springs should take care of that.

I am a big 10mm lover, and love my CZ75, so it would be a natural, but I am still a bit leery of the EAA issue. My dad has a Glock 29 in 10mm, and it is solid as a rock. Just an option, and you can be sure of reliability and service with teh Glock (yes, it is another $150).

Good luck.

 

[Dave P]

My 10mm witness Match is a tremendous pistol, at a great price!

 

[Grayrider]

I have probably owned more Witnesses than anyone out there, at least in the online community. Perhaps 24 or more pistols. Multiple 10mms passed through my collection with few problems. The rear sight on the base models is prone to coming loose. I don't know if they have fixed it as I made Tanfoglio aware years ago, and regardless it is an easy fix. I know from my previous inside contacts at EAA that shooters blow up guns periodically using ammo that is too hot. They got guns back with blown out grips and magazine base plates. You cannot blame the guns for that. Some 10mm shooters push the round too far in attempts to make it a magnum cartridge. I always shoot factory or my own reloaded ammo, and have had zero durability issues. The 10mm tends to feed well on the large platform Tanfoglio pistols, as does 45 and .38 Super (assuming you use the 15 round and not the chopped 10 round magazines). I know the 40 and 9mm large frame guns are touchier about feeding as one would expect. 1911s are the same way. The only other tweak I have had to do on some 10mm pistols is to VERY lightly polish the feed ramp, and I must stress that very little polishing was done. Don't take a Dremel to it and start grinding away metal. Just use a polishing wheel with rouge or some other very light medium, and only if you have feeding issues with multiple types of ammo.

One other point of advice is that many shooters get the Standard model 10mm and start replacing springs before they even shoot it. I have never replaced springs on any of my guns. It simply is not needed. I suspect some individuals that shoot really hot ammo are trying to reduce battery on the gun, but the answer to that is do not shoot really hot ammo. The gun may break and you may get hurt when it happens.

John

 

[Walkalong]

My Witness Elite Match is a .40, not a 10, but it is a great gun. I also have a Witness Silver Team in .45 I like as well.

 

[Onmilo]

I blew up a 10mm Witness about four years ago, my bad, not the guns.
As for EAA service, the gun was repaired promptly, the rubber grips were replaced with checkered walnut,( I blew one grip panel off in this misadventure), and the repair fee was a nominal $100.00 which I thought more than fair considering they replaced the whole upper.

As for the loose rear sights, they fixed that little issue.
If you ever try to remove a rear sight or even drift adjust windage on one of these guns you will understand.
They don't move without a healthy dose of cussing.
The only spring I ever replaced on the gun while I had it was the recoil spring and that was because I was experimenting, not because it ever needed it.

If you want a very decent Witness general purpose pistol in 10mm and are willing to pay the premium and wait a bit to receive one I will recommended the Witness Pro Hunter.
Good sights, good ergonomics, good trigger pull weight.
The only drawback is polygonal rifling like a Glock. In other words it isn't at all recommend that you shoot lead bullets in the gun.
Leading builds up, pressure skyrockets and gun goes boom. Believe me on this, it can and does happen.
Stick with jacketed bullets and shoot happy.

 

[boogalou]

I have the Witness Elite Match & Stock in .45ACP, which I feel are excellent handguns. I've been so impressed with them that I sold all my 1911's.

Sorry Mr. Browning!

 

[Geister]

Not sure why anyone would pursue a slowly dying ammo caliber

It's pretty hard to call the 10mm "slowly dying" when it's more versatile to reloaders than the .357 Magnum. My question is why would I personally want anything less?

 

[GARY1911A1]

I have four Witnesses in 10MM. A regular full size wonderfinish, an older longslide with Supersight, a Stock and a olymer full size. Like them all and have another Stock on order. Outside of 1911s' the CZ type are my favorite. Mine have all worked with some minor work. I believe Greyrider summed it up beat, but I do worry about shooting full power factory ammo out of them and now use a Buffer Tech Buff made for the CZ in them. Only the Polymer doesn't like them.

 

[Warren]

What about These loads?

135s at 1600 FPS. Too powerful?

 

[JP from Phoenix]

what exactly is a wonder finish? I've been looking at these in a good priced 9mm. I've been toiling around thinking of like 5 guns in 9mm I would like to get for my next piece. I worry about the customer service though. I doubt it would have a problem with 9mms though, i cant see any quality gun not being able to handle that kind of round. I have a couple months to think about it though, I still have to pay off the last gun i bought!

 

[mainmech48]

"Wonderfinish" is a proprietary 'electroless' process using nickel and some other materials. It's similar to what some European and Japanese outfits have been using to coat the cylinder bores on racing and production engines with for several years now. Very tough, very corrosion resistant and extremely durable.

I've had my full-sized, Wonderfinished Witness 9x19 for about twelve years now. It's been absolutely reliable over the course of several thousands of various 9x19 loads in several weights and profiles, and is both very accurate with stuff it likes (when I do my part) and extremely easy to shoot well with.

Don't have any first-hand on 10mm, but the CZ Forum has quite a few afficianadoes who can give you the straight skinny.

 

[mavracer]

I have a witness compact 10mm,have not shot much yet<200 rounds.sofar so good

 

[boomer1911a1]

Check also 10mmTalk dot com

I have the higher-end Witness Elite Match in 10mm and I affectionately refer to it as my "Fren Ten." Wonderful trigger, gorgeous looks, target-pistol accuracy...
My only little complaint is the blueing on the slide wears quickly along the contact points on the rails, luckily not in any place obvious. Oh, and I did replace the anemic stock recoil spring with a Wolff 20-lb unit and installed a Shok-buffer. I got the thing to shoot full-house (commercially available) 10mm, not lengthened .40 S&W.

Next week, I'm going to order another EAA, this one a standard 10mm full-size in Wonderfinish. Not sure if it'll be as smooth and crisp as the Elite Match, but it'll be a good platform, I've no doubt.

 

[JP from Phoenix]

Its a great looking gun and for under 400 bucks, i might have a winner with this one. I just hope the customer service isn't as bad as everyone says I'll probably get either one of these, a CZ75 or a Taurus PT92. I just want a quality gun that wont break the bank.

 

[jeepmor]

I have a base model in Wonder Finish in 10mm. I love the cartridge, personally it is my favorite. It is my woods gun with Double Tap 230 grain WFNGC filling the tank.

I've had a few issues with mine.

1. A bad mag release, easy fix, but still
2. Had to goto +10% mag springs before it fed reliably.
3. I put in a stiffer recoil spring. Need this for anything beyond the long 40S&W cartridges. Which, unfortunately, is most of them off the shelf until you get into the boutique manufacturers like Double Tap, Buffalo Bore or Reeds.

I did a fluff and buff on it and shortened the ejector some. Still, the thing hurls brass about 20 feet. But it used to be 30 feet.

I did all of the work myself and am now happy with the gun. Hearing of EAA's customer service, I took my own chances. I'm a gearhead, so this was basic stuff. There is a lot of good info about them on http://10mmtalk.com and I have posted a lot of info on my fixes. I have the same nickname there, peruse the site for some more background on these guns and a lot of specific issues and how they are handled. The mags dropping seems to be a common issue, and the fix is really easy. Everything is easy work and worth doing if you have a file and a dremel with a buffing felt and a bottle of metal polish.

This is usually a gun for the reloader types because the cartridges are hard to find in retail locations. Sure, you can get all you want online via the boutique providers. But if your out in rural America and run out of plinking fodder, you won't find it at your average gunstore or sporting goods shops. Trust me on this, a 1400 mile round trip from Oregon to Colorado and I hit at least 10 or more stores, most did not even know whether it was an auto or revolver cartridge.

 

[mpmarty]

Absolutely love the Witness pistols. I've got a full size 10mm wonder finish, an Elite Match in .40 with a 10mm conversion barrel and a compact witness in 10mm wonder finish. I cannot find any reason to settle for fast and light like a nine or slow and heavy like a 45 when I can have fast and heavy in a 10mm. The 200 grain at 1200 + fps has sufficient BC to be a reliable weapon out beyond a hundred yards and carrys sufficient energy out to that range to be effective.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I have both the Compact and the Limited in 10mm, my sister has the Match (also 10mm). The compact required a fluff and buff and stronger mag spring to run right with my full power handloads, and the limited got +10% mag springs and 24 lb recoil springs. My sisters Match has run fine with normal ammo, we'll find out next weekend WRT the hot stuff.

I love the Tanfoglio's. They took what is (in my opinion) the best pistol platform since the 1911 and ran with it.

 

[wally]

suspect some individuals that shoot really hot ammo are trying to reduce battery on the gun, but the answer to that is do not shoot really hot ammo.

I'm just trying to to keep the brass out of the weeds so I have some small chance of finding it when I put in a stronger recoil spring.

The steel frame guns are good, the Polymer guns have several versions of the frames making getting the right mags iffy -- refer to poor EAA service mentioned above -- when you buy a spare mag from them it comes with a package insert that basically says: "hope it works, if not bummer."

I've a .40 S&W Polymer with the full sized (10mm/.45/.38super) mag well and its the worst jam-o-matic I've ever encountered. But put the .45 upper on it and its fine.

--wally.

 

[brashboy]

Here is an interesting comment from mouseguns.com on the 10mm:

10mm Auto
The 10mm is not living up to expectations. It was thought to be the ne plus ultra of pistol rounds when introduced in the late 1980's, but hasn't turned out to be superior to the better 9mm, .40 S&W or .45 ACP jacketed hollowpoints. This isn't to say that the 10mm Auto sucks - it is a fine stopper. It's just that we hoped for so much more.

http://www.mouseguns.com/pf9rev/pf9rev.htm

Nothing against the 10mm, but the ballistics are very close to the 40 SW. Why the 10mm?

 

[jfh]

brashboy: Your quote from mouseguns is not on topic for this thread--but I'll be happy to discuss it elsewhere, on a thread that probably exists if you do a search and post on it. I will point out that the .40S&W standard loading is for a 180gr. bullet at 1015 fps, with 412 ft. lbs. of energy. The 10mm standard loading is for a 200 gr. bullet at 1200 fps--which is 635 ft. lbs. (Source: Ammoguide). In the 90s, HP development is not what it is now, so the situation again favors the 10mm if one wants the other benefits of the round.

re the Witness 10mm: I own two Witnesses--the 'intermediate' 40 S&W frame, and a large frame, both in SS. I bought the 10mm top end a couple of months ago, and couldn't be more pleased for shooting with it overall. I'm still burnishing the barrel; got about 250 rounds through it so far. With the reloads (Hornady 180 RNFP-TMJ, 5.1 or 5.25 gr. of 231) I've sorted out so far, I'm getting 1" to 1.25" groups at 15 yards, typically with one flyer.

That's with the standard (non match) slide and barrel; I did add a simple rap-in LPA adjustable rear sight. The only problem is that the front cast-in 'dot' sight is too short to allow me to get a dead-on hold out of it.

Overall, I find the Witness a hair more comfortable to shoot than my Kimber 10mm--e.g., the grip spreads the recoil better. Were I feeling rich, I would dig in for an Elite Match in 10mm.

Jim H.