I've been wanting a CZ but haven't found one when I had the money. I now have the chance to buy a Witness 9mm, blued like new with box for 250.00. I've seen them for in the $300 range on online auctions. This one is at a local dealer/hardware store and was purchased there new about 8 mos. ago. Should I or not? Also, what exactly is the "wonder finish"?
EAA Witness - Should I or not?
- Thread starter todd-45
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Woody_in_MN
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Todd,
I have had four different CZ's but never an EA Witness. But I do have a couple things I could share.
1) CZ's: My shooting buddy who's opion I value feels that the triggers have gotten worse, and gritty around the time the P01 came out. So, if you really want a CZ, I would say try to find an older 75 in good shape. Second point, all CZ's I've shot have been extremely accurate. Including the little 2075 RAMI.
2) EA Witness: I have heard that they are come out of the factory really good, or very poorly. I don't think I would buy a Witness unless I could dry fire it - or better yet, test fire a clip or 2 thru the gun. Wonder is their SS finish.
Good luck,
- w
I have had four different CZ's but never an EA Witness. But I do have a couple things I could share.
1) CZ's: My shooting buddy who's opion I value feels that the triggers have gotten worse, and gritty around the time the P01 came out. So, if you really want a CZ, I would say try to find an older 75 in good shape. Second point, all CZ's I've shot have been extremely accurate. Including the little 2075 RAMI.
2) EA Witness: I have heard that they are come out of the factory really good, or very poorly. I don't think I would buy a Witness unless I could dry fire it - or better yet, test fire a clip or 2 thru the gun. Wonder is their SS finish.
Good luck,
- w
With apologies to everyone who owns a Witness they're happy with: I bought a different model than the one you're talking about. I got a new model compact polymer witness in .45 acp. At 20 yards, it shot approximately 12-18 inches low with all loads. You couldn't aim at any point on a standard target and hit paper. It appeared to be well made, but unless your idea of self defense is the dreaded shin shot, the gun was worthless and should never have left the factory set up like it was. Kept it a week and traded it off. Lots of people think the other models are good buys. Like you, I got one to save money, thinking it would be a cheap, reliable firearm. Cost me a bundle to trade it off for something that worked. Learned my lesson. Again, that was a different model than the one you're talking about. My unasked for advice would be to save a few more bucks and get the gun you really want.
MachIVshooter
Member
That problem is not one with the gun. It is either a) the sight or b) the shooter. Either is easily corrected.
To the original question, go for it. The Witness line are good pistols and the 9mms tend to be trouble free. The others are also great guns, but sometimes require some fluff and buff to run well with all ammo. My 10mm compact was a little finicky, but a quick polish on the feed ramp and a little beveling to the bottom of the extractor and she runs great. Magazines are also a common Witness issue (mine would not always lock the slide when empty). I simply swapped the springs in mine with those from 10 rd. Beretta 92 mags (not like I'll ever use those) and it works without a hitch.
I guess I would have to rate the Witness as a great deal for gun folks, but probably not the best idea for someone who wants to buy it, load it and throw it in the nightstand drawer. But then, I don't trust any auto that much. Mine must all pass a litmus test before they are employed for protection.
Snowdog
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Ya know, I've been wanting to buy a full-size Witness in either .38super or 10mm for some time now, but I can't forget my experience with the last Witness I had.
Before selling it to a "tinkerer" for a loss, I found my .40S&W compact in Wonder Finish was attractive, fairly accurate and balanced well in the paw. It just wouldn't feed more than four consecutive rounds in any magazine tried without failing to feed. I sent it back to EAA's designated repair facilities three (yes, three) times, returning with the same BS results stating "Test Fired, OK". No doubt it was received by the same incompetent stinker all three times.
It would hand-cycle all cartridges in the magazine just fine, but when actually fired, it was a whole different story. I suspect they didn't actually fire the pistol at all before sending it back. I suspect this as I had lubed the cleaned barrel with a foul-smelling (original formula) Tetra Oil that I believed was the cat's meow at the time. The pistol was returned just as clean as it was when sent out, with the barrel and bore still smelling of the rancid Tetra Oil.
Perhaps some day I'll reconsider, but not until I find substantial proof that they've made significant changes in their customer service and repair departments.
Other than it not wanting to function properly, mine was quite a nice, stout looking (and seemingly well-made) handgun.
I absolutely concur with Woody's assessment.
Before selling it to a "tinkerer" for a loss, I found my .40S&W compact in Wonder Finish was attractive, fairly accurate and balanced well in the paw. It just wouldn't feed more than four consecutive rounds in any magazine tried without failing to feed. I sent it back to EAA's designated repair facilities three (yes, three) times, returning with the same BS results stating "Test Fired, OK". No doubt it was received by the same incompetent stinker all three times.
It would hand-cycle all cartridges in the magazine just fine, but when actually fired, it was a whole different story. I suspect they didn't actually fire the pistol at all before sending it back. I suspect this as I had lubed the cleaned barrel with a foul-smelling (original formula) Tetra Oil that I believed was the cat's meow at the time. The pistol was returned just as clean as it was when sent out, with the barrel and bore still smelling of the rancid Tetra Oil.
Perhaps some day I'll reconsider, but not until I find substantial proof that they've made significant changes in their customer service and repair departments.
Other than it not wanting to function properly, mine was quite a nice, stout looking (and seemingly well-made) handgun.
I absolutely concur with Woody's assessment.
rustymaggot
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i had one years ago. i loved it. i wish id kept it. i paid around 500 for mine but that was with the combo kit. had a spare slide and barrel in .40.
it was funny, the 9mm wouldnt feed out if the .40 magazine, but .40 fed flawlessly out of the 9mm mags.
it was funny, the 9mm wouldnt feed out if the .40 magazine, but .40 fed flawlessly out of the 9mm mags.
Dave P
Member
Witness match 10mm
In my limited experience, Witness steel is a great way to go. My match 10mm had a few warts to work out, but it is still a great deal for the price. 14/15 rnds of full power 10mm; super accurate; ultra reliable. Love it.
Sending them back to eaa for work seems to be very painful. I fixed the problems myself.
Dave
In my limited experience, Witness steel is a great way to go. My match 10mm had a few warts to work out, but it is still a great deal for the price. 14/15 rnds of full power 10mm; super accurate; ultra reliable. Love it.
Sending them back to eaa for work seems to be very painful. I fixed the problems myself.
Dave
Easily fixed on earlier, pre-2006 models, perhaps. EAA maintains a supply of higher rear sights for those guns. Not for this model. They don't fit - different dovetail. They sent me one. They do have an adjustable target sight for it which I didn't deem appropriate for a compact, concealable gun. You're correct, it's not the "gun," it's whoever chose to install a too-low sight for it.
SouthpawShootr
Member
On the original question, most of what I've heard about these guns is highly complimentary. BUT most of what I've heard about the importer, EAA, is not. Back before CZ75s could be imported, they were the only game in town and people snapped them up. When the CZs started coming in, their popularity took a hit. I've wanted to get one in a 10mm with the wonder finish (as I understand it, the equivalent of Tenifer - a very tough finish). Never could find one when I had the cash, dealer couldn't, or wouldn't, order one. Wouldn't mind having one in 9mm. There's currently a ligthly used .40 Witness compact at a local shop for $250, but I really don't want another .40. If you can shoot the gun before you buy, definitely do it. If not, field strip it (ask first), and look for things that shouldn't be there. Cracks, obvious differential in workmanship - tool marks in one place otherwise absent or not consistant on a finely finished gun are hallmarks of home gunsmithing.
On Murphster's problem: is that front sight dovetailed as well? A good gunsmith could redo the dovetails and probably give you lower profile sights. Bad news is that chances are it would involve modifying the factory dovetails. I have an FEG Hi-Power clone that I wanted to put a different set of sights on. The dovetail is the older FN/Browning dimensions and current sights won't fit. The local smith told me he could recut the rear dovetail for Novaks and dovetail the front while supplying the standard sights for less than $100 (catch was the Novak rear was brand new take-offs from another gun that he had recently redone). The dovetail front would let him choose a front to put the gun right on the money. I still haven't done it (other projects ate the budget). Now, the question is whether you really want to put any more money into the gun. If you like it and want to keep it, this is the only way to get your self happy, while maintaining the character of the gun as a CCW piece. You may even find that the dovetail dimensions unaltered on your gun allows another manufacturer's factory sights to be installed (on my FEG, the dovetail is perfect for Sig P series sights, for which I have some take-offs somewhere around here that I bought for $6 and the gunsmith would install the rear, dovetail and supply a front for $40).
On Murphster's problem: is that front sight dovetailed as well? A good gunsmith could redo the dovetails and probably give you lower profile sights. Bad news is that chances are it would involve modifying the factory dovetails. I have an FEG Hi-Power clone that I wanted to put a different set of sights on. The dovetail is the older FN/Browning dimensions and current sights won't fit. The local smith told me he could recut the rear dovetail for Novaks and dovetail the front while supplying the standard sights for less than $100 (catch was the Novak rear was brand new take-offs from another gun that he had recently redone). The dovetail front would let him choose a front to put the gun right on the money. I still haven't done it (other projects ate the budget). Now, the question is whether you really want to put any more money into the gun. If you like it and want to keep it, this is the only way to get your self happy, while maintaining the character of the gun as a CCW piece. You may even find that the dovetail dimensions unaltered on your gun allows another manufacturer's factory sights to be installed (on my FEG, the dovetail is perfect for Sig P series sights, for which I have some take-offs somewhere around here that I bought for $6 and the gunsmith would install the rear, dovetail and supply a front for $40).
Shootcraps
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I would buy a CZ, but I would not buy an EAA. I had a brand new 10mm compact Witness and it had constant FTF and FTE. Sent it to their repair shop and it came back just as bad. Called and talked with their "gunsmith" Paul Richter and also told him they shorted me two magazines and he yelled at me and called me a liar. EAA customer service sucks royally.
It's a shame too. The compact Witness would be an awesome gun if you got one that worked 100% without doing anything to it.
It's a shame too. The compact Witness would be an awesome gun if you got one that worked 100% without doing anything to it.
Mister Kingdom
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I used to have an EAA Witness in .40 S&W. Financial issues forced me to part with it. It was an excellent gun. It ate everything I fed it, was accurate and reliable and a joy to shoot.
Now I have heard bad things about the polymer Witnesses - I seem to recall that Gun Tests didn't like them, but they never buy more than one sample at a time for testing.
If I found a deal like that, I would probably buy.
Now I have heard bad things about the polymer Witnesses - I seem to recall that Gun Tests didn't like them, but they never buy more than one sample at a time for testing.
If I found a deal like that, I would probably buy.
MachIVshooter
Member
While the FTF seems a fairly common issue that is either mag or extractor (or both), the FTE is not one I've heard of. These little guns tend to be very positive in extraction/ejection (mine will fling empties 30 feet or more)
One also has to bare in mind that making a compact pistol that fires the 10mm is a challenging feat-so much so that only two manufacturers, Tanfoglio included, have ever done it. It came as no surprise to me that mine had some issues with full power (read; 180 grainers that clock 1408 from 5" guns)ammo. But as I said, with a little fine-tuning, this $299 gun has proven to be exceptional.
My suggestion to anyone who has FTF issue with their Compact model would be to do three things:
a) polish the feed ramp
b) slightly bevel the bottom of the extractor, and polish it
c) get full-length mag springs
The FTF issues always seem to be the result of a cartridge rim not going under the extractor, a combination of weak mag springs and a very tight extractor with a square bottom. These three things I suggested made a night and day difference in mine.
mainmech48
Member
I have a couple of CZs and one Witness, a "Wonderfinish" full-sized 9x19. This finish is hard chrome of some sort, very tough and durable. I bought it LNIB with two "hi-caps" (Klinton mag ban was in-place at the time) for $225. At the time, I bought it out of curiousity based on the low price. I've come to consider it as being one of the best deals I've gotten with extensive use.
Mine has alway shot precisely to POA with 115 gr. ammo at 25 yds., feeds any type flawlessly, and will group into a bit over 2" at 25 yds. with stuff it likes. Functional reliability has been all one can ask for, with exactly four malfs in over 5.5 K rds - all directly attributable to "bad" ammo (two duds, a squib, and a rim failure). I've only had to do a routine spring (recoil and FP) replacement. Nothing has broken. Putting +10% Wolff springs in the mags neither improved nor hindered reliability; it's just something I do now and then.
I've heard a lot of talk about EAA's CS, and would tend to agree that much of the current bad rep Tanfoglio seems to have gotten must come from that to some degree. Don't know about their polymer-framed stuff, but my steel-framed Witness has been about everything I could ask for in a basic service-sized 9x19, especially for the low price.
Mine has alway shot precisely to POA with 115 gr. ammo at 25 yds., feeds any type flawlessly, and will group into a bit over 2" at 25 yds. with stuff it likes. Functional reliability has been all one can ask for, with exactly four malfs in over 5.5 K rds - all directly attributable to "bad" ammo (two duds, a squib, and a rim failure). I've only had to do a routine spring (recoil and FP) replacement. Nothing has broken. Putting +10% Wolff springs in the mags neither improved nor hindered reliability; it's just something I do now and then.
I've heard a lot of talk about EAA's CS, and would tend to agree that much of the current bad rep Tanfoglio seems to have gotten must come from that to some degree. Don't know about their polymer-framed stuff, but my steel-framed Witness has been about everything I could ask for in a basic service-sized 9x19, especially for the low price.
Well, I did
I did decide to go ahead and get the Witness, 9mm. I figured for $250 if I didn't like it I could get that back out of it. I did run 100 rounds through it this evening. The only malfunction was 1 FTF, the last round in the third magazine. I was shooting Wal-Mart white box so it could have been the ammo. No other last round FTF occurred. I'm satisfied. It shoots well, accurate. I have 2 Sigs, 229 9mm & .357, and as far as handling, it's almost equal to them though I could not atest to reliability yet as compared to the Sigs. I've got to remember not to compare anything to the Sigs, apples and oranges. I may keep it though.
I did decide to go ahead and get the Witness, 9mm. I figured for $250 if I didn't like it I could get that back out of it. I did run 100 rounds through it this evening. The only malfunction was 1 FTF, the last round in the third magazine. I was shooting Wal-Mart white box so it could have been the ammo. No other last round FTF occurred. I'm satisfied. It shoots well, accurate. I have 2 Sigs, 229 9mm & .357, and as far as handling, it's almost equal to them though I could not atest to reliability yet as compared to the Sigs. I've got to remember not to compare anything to the Sigs, apples and oranges. I may keep it though.
Woody_in_MN
Member
todd,
If the Witness is cosmeticially good, I think you mad a very good deal. If the Witness was in good to excellent shape, and I had some local guarentee - I would have bought it for $250. That is a very good deal. If you decide to sell later, you will probably get as much for it as a used CZ 75. Heck - if you don't like it contact me. I'll buy it from you. And I'm not even looking for one right now.
- w
If the Witness is cosmeticially good, I think you mad a very good deal. If the Witness was in good to excellent shape, and I had some local guarentee - I would have bought it for $250. That is a very good deal. If you decide to sell later, you will probably get as much for it as a used CZ 75. Heck - if you don't like it contact me. I'll buy it from you. And I'm not even looking for one right now.
- w
Shootcraps
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When they make one that's 100% reliable out of the box, AND they fire that idiot Paul Richter, I MIGHT consider buying one.
I polished the feed ramp. I put (at peoples suggestion) stiffer springs in it. Bought two new magazines. Sent it back and they supposedly replaced the extractor.
Before I spend hundreds of dollars and countless hours on a $300 gun trying to make it work as it should, I'll buy a Glock 29 and get something that works.
MachIVshooter
Member
You won't get that with any autoloader, period. Every automatic I've ever owned that saw more than a thousand rounds has failed at some point, whether it was ammo, gun or mag.
I wil definitely agree with you on their CS, and this is why I tell people that the witness is not for someone who does not intend to shoot often and make minor modifications.
While I spent zero extra dollars and all of about 2 hours making mine right, I can see your point. So if the Glock is OK with you, great. I personally dislike Glocks for many reasons, not the least of which is lowsy ergonomics (and yes, I have owned Glocks). That, and in recent history they have far more reports catastophic ka-booms than any other single make. I would much rather own a gun that requires a little honing to be combat reliable than one that could injure my hand firing real full power ammo. If you disagree, find me a photo of a witness with the slide and barrel having gone up and over the frame to the rear, or one with a grip frame split down the middle.
I have pounded my little witness with hundreds of loads making well over 700 ft/lbs from the 3.5" tube (180 grainers with 10.8 grs. 800x over CCI 350 primers) and the gun shows no indications of a pending problem. Polymer won't give a warning; it just goes from OK to failure.
This will be my last post on this thread arguing in favor of the Witness line. If a person cannot appreciate the attributes of this well-made and inexpensive gun, so be it.
On a side note, I do find it interesting that so many folks will tolerate to no end the reliability issues common with so many 1911's (and yes, I'm a 1911 guy too), but when any other model pistol fails to function 99.9% reliably, people shun it.
Shootcraps
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Wrong. You're making a very general statement that is just plain wrong. If the gun will function correctly with ANY FACTORY ammo, then it's a paperweight. And if you spend the money to send it back and the factory doesn't make it right, then it's a POS.
There are several guns I would trust out of the box without a break in. The Beretta/Taurus 92, CZ75, and the Glocks.
The only Glocks that kB'd were fortys and AFAIK that's been fixed. A Glock 29 or 20 will be more reliable than a Witness Compact 10MM ANY DAY of the week.
I'm not surprised.
If it worked 100%, I'd appreciate it a lot and I'd still have one.
I would do (and have done) the same with a 1911 that wasn't working. Back to the factory, and if they didn't fix it, it's gone.
Gordon
Member
1000+ rounds thru my steel framed .40 Witness compact with no glitches I can remember. It is my truck gun that replaced a CZ97 and I trust it completely.It has a better trigger than my CZP01 , but is not as crazy accurate as the CZ is.All in all, I'm sure it is the luck of the draw wether you get a lemon or a jewel.
Vitamin G
Member
I said it in another thread...
I bought a Glock 20 about 6 months ago, and my "budget conscious" friend bought a Witness in 10mm. He came out of it with money for a case of ammo, a better trigger, an external safety, better case support, and a more ergonomic grip, in my opinion.
After he tossed the crappy 10rd mags, his has had LESS jams than my glock (albeit by a total of 2 jams to 1 jam)
I bought a Glock 20 about 6 months ago, and my "budget conscious" friend bought a Witness in 10mm. He came out of it with money for a case of ammo, a better trigger, an external safety, better case support, and a more ergonomic grip, in my opinion.
After he tossed the crappy 10rd mags, his has had LESS jams than my glock (albeit by a total of 2 jams to 1 jam)
MachIVshooter
Member
If your signature is true, you could have made your pistol run fine and only spent $7 each on new mag springs. The same goes for nearly any other gun with steel parts.
I never said anything about being able to trust the gun to run. I said no autoloader will run 100%. My Baby Eagle has been super reliable, running fine with any factory ammo or handload. I have over 16,000 rounds through this gun. It has had 7 stoppages. I consider 99.96% completely reliable, but the fact is an autoloader will have a failure at some point. If yours hasn't, you have not put enough rounds through it. My Glocks have jammed, my Beretta's have jammed, my S&W's have jammed, my HK jammed. They all can and eventually will. That is why the military sets a standard for MRBS, rather than saying no jams, period. They are fully aware that it will happen, but they allow for 1 stoppage every 2000 rounds average (99.95% reliable). Guess how many of the pistols make that mark?
The only pistol I own that has yet to fail is my S&W 4506, and when it does I will not throw a fit and send it back to S&W and then bad mouth the gun all over the internet.
Thin Black Line
Member
Are the barrels in the Baby Eagle and Witness interchangeable?
1911_CQB
Member
Id only get it if you get one in 10mm.....
Shootcraps
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That doesn't mean I'm a gunsmith.
But I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express.
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