Eaton Centre Mall shooting

[dmazur]

I have had a few conversations with acquaintances who are doing the predictable "gun control waltz" in time to the music being played by the media in re: the latest tragedy in Aurora.

I certainly wasn't aware of the Eaton Centre Mall shooting (Toronto, Canada doesn't make mainstream down here...), but it seemed like a good counterpoint to the argument of increased controls.

So, without any heat, I simply ask, "If increased controls had any effect, how did that shooting occur, in a country with very strict gun laws?"

It isn't going to change anyone's opinion, but at least it is presentation of something factual that might help slow their stampede to increased control as an obvious solution.

 

[Prince Yamato]

Those were gangbangers shooting at each other from across the street in what is basically Toronto's version of Times Square.

The Toronto Star and Interior Minister Dalton McGuinty blamed the US and guns stolen from licensed collectors.

Basically their situation was the same as ours. Liberals calling for more gun control and Conservatives saying that it was the individuals who were responsible, not the objects (guns).

Arms controls had no effect. The guns were obtained illegally from whatever source.

 

[idcurrie]

I'm Canadian.

The Eaton Centre is not the Canadian version of Times Square. That would be Dundas Square.

These black drug dealing gang bangers were shooting at each other with illegal handguns that were purchased through illegal channels and originated from the United States of America.

It is practically not possible for criminals to purchase handguns which were sourced legally in Canada.


Thanks to all these illegal easily obtained guns streaming across the US border, the Ontario Government and Attorney General are calling for more restrictions on legal firearms owners in Canada which have absolutely NOTHING to do with any of this. There has been exactly 1 crime in 30 years using a legally purchased handgun in Canada. The rest, from the states.

Thanks for that.

 

[David E]

How about you jail the criminals that are "streaming" these ILLEGAL guns and the criminals who buy them?

What? Hold the actual criminals accountable for their illegal actions??

That's just crazy enough to work!

 

[idcurrie]

^^^ We do that.

In fact our PC party just introduced the stiffest minimum sentences in the History of the country. Closer to the US system which works...so...so...well...

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Thats the bad thing about neighbors...whether it be just the guy next door or the country next door...they're always trying to tell you how to run YOUR house.

I don't have neighbors, at least none that aren't family...but if I did...I'd build a fence, they stay on their side...I stay on mine.

Open borders are the problem more so than the guns...I've crossed into Canada hundreds of times (truck driver) and its usually a hassle, but the thing is once you get off the beaten path...you can cross the border without even knowing it...thats where the problem lies....not with our gun laws, but our open borders.

 

[dmazur]

I believe the point I was trying to make is that criminals care absolutely nothing about the law, regardless of nationality.

The amazing thing is that the aforementioned acquaintances generally "stumbled" over the idea that increased regulation didn't work. One actually asked why it would not work.

And the answer is that the typical "gang-banger" (who is generally a felon multiple times over) continue to carry guns because they do not care about laws. Any laws. Their occupation and education consists of living outside the law, with occasional jail time factored in as a "cost of business".

The correct actions for anyone who is suffering loss of freedom is to vote the folks out of office who are ill-informed enough to believe increased regulation will accomplish anything useful.

Canadians can play, too. ( )

 

[Blue .45]

Thanks to all these illegal easily obtained guns streaming across the US border, the Ontario Government and Attorney General are calling for more restrictions on legal firearms owners in Canada which have absolutely NOTHING to do with any of this. There has been exactly 1 crime in 30 years using a legally purchased handgun in Canada. The rest, from the states.

Thanks for that.

America didn't elect your legislators. You can thank yourselves for that.

 

[donoo]

Many young men spend thousands of hours playing violent
video games. The purpose of these games is to kill as many of the targets as possible. as fast as they can.
Then they watch violent movies and violent TV.
Many also listen to violent music telling them to kill the cops and.do other unspeakable things .
Paintball games let them sharpen their skills of make-believe murder.

Do you think---------No, it could not be and besides it makes millions of dollars for certain people and that is what counts in the usa!

 

[Buzzsaw46]

Being part of the gamer generation and having played many violent games and watched violent movies. I can tell you none of that caused this guys problems. If those influences were the cause we would have millions of folks 45 and under that are right on the edge of mass murder and I just dont believe that to be the case.

 

[Plan2Live]

idcurrie - we don't live in a bubble and the genie is already out of the bottle. You can't wave a wand and make all firearms disappear. With that being the case, it makes no sense to limit law abiding citizens' ability to defend themselves. I'm sorry you are unfortunate enough to live in a left leaning, represive society. You should think about coming south and seeing firsthand how sensible the 2nd Amendment is.

 

[Buzzsaw46]

No, I'm not much of an expert even having been an actual gun owner since '83.

I know we want to understand what happened and fix it so we never see more of this, but the fact is sometimes people go off the deep end and do the unthinkable.

I just dont think blaming any form of media is any different than blaming the guns. When I was a kid heavy metal music was going to cause us all to be deranged killers well I've been listening to metal since the late '70's and haven't snapped and shot up a work place yet. In the '90's it was video games and rap music but 20 years later and we still have very few of these terrible events(thank god). The one thing they all have in common is a poor soul gone mad.

 

[donoo]

In 1972, the Surgeon General issued the following warning on violent TV programs: "It is clear to me that the causal relationship between televised violence and antisocial behavior is sufficient to warrant appropriate and immediate remedial action. … There comes a time when the data are sufficient to justify action. That time has come."" (Steinfeld, 1972).

 

[Moby76065]

It is practically not possible for criminals to purchase handguns which were sourced legally in Canada.

BULLCRAP!!!! Canada isn't perfect either. American's get sick and tired of being the world's scape goat.

And we get tons of illegals streaming in from your country. Thanks for that!

 

[jbrown50]

^^^ We do that.

In fact our PC party just introduced the stiffest minimum sentences in the History of the country. Closer to the US system which works...so...so...well...

Apparently not all of your illegal guns are "streaming across the US border".

http://www.nfa.ca/news/428-firearms-go-missing-police-arsenals

A group opposing Canada's firearms registry says it has discovered that 428
 guns have gone missing from police forces or other public agencies. And
 Canada's National Firearms Association, which obtained the figure through an
access-to-information request, said it suggests police are part of the 
problem of guns falling into the hands of gangsters and other criminals. "It
 seems to me there is a little bit of a double standard here," NFA president
 Sheldon Clare of Prince George said Thursday. He said police like to point
out that guns owned by lawabiding citizens can end up in the wrong hands if 
they are stored improperly. But he suggested police should be asking
 themselves how many of their own guns have ended up being used in crimes.
 "Police loss of firearms are hushed up," he said.

 

[gym]

I don't think video Games have anything to do with it. For instance my neighboors are both big gamers and play Call of Duty, Black Ops, and all the rest, but are ati's when it comes to real guns. And both are in the computer field, he is a VP at a software CO, She is a web designer. We play and I had guns before video games were invented. My wife could take them or leave them, and she was really into online shooters for 10 yrs. Granted we are far from kids now, but the same holds true for my friends sons who range from 10 tp 22,they play games and some play paint ball, but they eventually grow out of those things, and none are violent, or even want to shoot real guns.

 

[blarby]

Lemme try this again......

Gosh, must be inconvenient being so close to a major metropolitan area known for its crime, which overflows in your direction frequently....as noted and jested at by both sides of the fence frequently... this major metropolitan area which you are referenced as being directly adjacent to in both popular culture and local journalistic media.

Pointed humorous jab at the crappy things that flow between both borders, Take that, Canada !

Pointed humorous jab at both your own crime problem which overflows across our border, mixed with a laughable jab of how the gun violence is going on our southern border.

thanks for that !


....... I dunno, falls kinda flat.

It is practically not possible for criminals to purchase handguns which were sourced legally in Canada.

Laugh, scoff, what ignorance ! I have direct personal knowledge that this is not so.

There are many avenues for that to occur- some of which have already been mentioned. The one that hasn't been mentioned is that handguns and other weapons aren't Illegal in canada... just harder to obtain than they are in New York.

 

[gym]

If the police know that there are heavilly armed gangs in certain areas, they should be pro active in infiltrating, invetigating, and sending in whatever they need to clean out the crap. That's what Bush did in Miami, when the coke dalers had taken over the city. The followiing year thousands of high end stores closed their doors, Gucci, Ferrari etc, they were all happy taking the money and shutting up about the crime until hundreds of people an a matter of months were gunned down as collateral damage..
There comes a point where you either accept it or go in and clean it out. The Miami skyline was built with drug money they owned the city the police force and every politician.
You need a larger scale operation involving a multi agency and military task force to get everyone in one sweep.
Until people realize this ,it will continue.

 

[hso]

Gangs are organized crime groups.
Organized crime groups have always moved firearms as freely as they've moved their "product" (booze during prohibition, drugs today). The come from many sources, but the are intended to connect the dots between their point of origin and the point of the crime.

As to guns "streaming across the US border" let's look at some objective facts instead of sound bite quotes. The ATF publishes statistics on firearms every year. Include amongst those reports is data on the traces carried out here and for Canada. The 2007-2011 data shows about a thousand guns being traced to US sources each year. This is slightly down from 2007 (1,484) to 2011 (1,190) indicating almost a third drop in US guns recovered in Canadian gun crimes, a steady dropping trend. http://www.atf.gov/statistics/download/trace-data/international/2007-2011-canada-trace-data.pdf It is easy to fall prey to sound bite propaganda, but it is foolish to repeat it when real information is available showing it not to be true.

 

[idcurrie]

Laugh, scoff, what ignorance ! I have direct personal knowledge that this is not so.

There are many avenues for that to occur- some of which have already been mentioned. The one that hasn't been mentioned is that handguns and other weapons aren't Illegal in canada... just harder to obtain than they are in New York.

Sorry - you're totally misinformed on these points.

It's incredible difficult to acquire a handgun illegally which was originally purchased legally in Canada. Note that I used the word PRACTICALLY in my original post. There will be some that were stolen or lost. Things happen. Practically, though, it's not possible to get a legally purchased handgun in Canada through illegal means.

This is evidenced by the fact that there has only been crime committed in Canada with such a handgun in the last 30 years. The rest were all smuggled illegally across the border.

The one that hasn't been mentioned is that handguns and other weapons aren't Illegal in canada... just harder to obtain than they are in New York.

Complete and total ignorance. Bill C-68 in 1995 has made all firearms in Canada illegal. It is unlawful to own any kind of firearm in Canada per C-68 (the firearms act). A Restricted Posession and Acquisition Licence gives you a 5 year 'get out of jail free' card to commit what is actually a crime. If not renewed, you turn in your guns or go to jail.

 

[idcurrie]

hso, okay, so smuggling across the border is decreasing. Great. It's still where the handguns are coming from. The fact that it's decreased is great. Let's keep going on that.

 

[Skribs]

Practically, though, it's not possible to get a legally purchased handgun in Canada through illegal means.

Uh...what? First off, practicality and possibility are two different things. Second, there is an obvious article which is stating that hundreds of guns got into the hands of criminals as a result of your own police force or other public agencies. You are just ignoring that when you say the only problem is guns smuggled from the US, except for that 1 incident.

Your post comes off more of a rant than anything else.

 

[CDW4ME]

So, folks in Canada can't legally have a handgun to protect themself?



I knew that, but felt like asking a rhetorical question.

I think Canadians interested in self preservation would be lining up to become US citizens.

 

[hso]

CDW4ME,

Sure you didn't mean that Americans would be lining up to go to Canada since the Canadian violent crime rate is much lower than that in the US. If self preservation is the only motivation then moving to safer Canada is the conclusion.

Of course the crime rate in the NE US has shown the smallest improvement in the US so folks in those eastern border states could just move where the violent crime rates have dropped by almost 5% in recent years instead of north to chilly Canada.

 

[CDW4ME]

CDW4ME,

Sure you didn't mean that Americans would be lining up to go to Canada since the Canadian violent crime rate is much lower than that in the US. If self preservation is the only motivation then moving to safer Canada is the conclusion.

I shudder to think that I would have to rely on waiting for the police if an armed person(s) approached me in a parking lot demanded money & threatened my life.

I do not like to imagine the sound of glass breaking, armed & violent person(s) entering my home while I dial 911 and rely on a baseball bat or knife.
How well is that ^ same situation going to go over when one is elderly?

America may be more violent, but at least I am given the freedom to ensure my own personal safety (self-preservation).

The USA is the SAFEST place I could possibly be, not leaving either.