Economics 101: Schmidt-Rubin K31 vs. Mosin Nagants

[dak0ta]

I know that rifle-wise K31 > Mosin Nagant in accuracy, speed of shots etc.

I'm more concerned about which is the better buy. Ammo-wise, 7.5x55mm vs. 7.62x54R are both scarce up here in Canadia.

The K31 is more expensive than M44/38 because it is more refined blah blah.

Now I hear that the 7.5 Swiss round uses .308 bullets. I know where to get brass and some dies. Would it be cheaper in the long run to just reload 7.5 Swiss with .308 bullets than trying to scrounge up non-existent 7.62x54R surplus or trying to reload it? I hear that the .311 rounds are expensive/hard to find.

Decisions. Help please!

 

[slowworm]

I'd be massively surprised if .311 bullets are hard to find up north. It's the same diameter as a .303 cartridge bullet.

The Brits measure the bore across the lands, we measure across the grooves. Which is how a .303 ends up using a bullet .311 across.

 

[elmerfudd]

I don't know what the rules are up there concerning surplus ammo, but down here, 7.62x54R is cheap. You can usually get surplus for $0.20 or less per shot, and that's about double what it was a couple years ago.

Perhaps if you're close to the border and the laws permit it you could come down here, buy up a few cases and then head back home.

 

[dak0ta]

It has to do with the gov't having to pass 7.62x54R surplus as safe etc. And when it does come through, Canadians wet themselves and buy everything. Then it's another year before the next shipment arrives.

 

[Firehand]

7.5 Swiss does indeed use .308 bullets. I've been using the same 150-grain gas-check cast bullet for practice loads that I do for .30-30, with good results. And if need be, can form .284 Winchester cases to 7.5 Swiss. Which I also did before reloadable brass became available for a good price.

You can get 7.62x54r brass, or ammo with reloadable cases to use. And .311" bullets may be more available than you think, take a look around.

 

[Cosmoline]

I know of lots of folks in Canada who hunt and shoot with surplus Mosins. There has to be a pretty good 54R supply. The biggest difference is the K31's will be more accurate on average than Mosins, but if you get a Finn that evens out. The Mosins will take a much wider range of loads. The K31 is engineered top to bottom around GP11 or very similar handloads. For example I can load the Mosins up with 215 grain handloads or 100 grain plinkers and get decent results for both. Do not try to load a 215 grain slug into a K31! LOL

 

[Skofnung]

If ammo availability is the same (in your case, both are scarce cartridges) get the better gun. Then reload.

 

[dak0ta]

If ammo availability is the same (in your case, both are scarce cartridges) get the better gun. Then reload.

That's what I figured. Might as well in the long run, optimize your rifle's accuracy to the perfect load.

 

[Ash]

Well, it really does depend on your needs. Both guns have very good, logical defenses.

Ash

 

[35 Whelen]

If handloading is an option for you, then by all means get a K-31 as .308" bullets are easy to come by. The Mosins of course use .310"-.312" bullets which are, at best, a headache to find especially when it comes to quality (target) bullets. Were it not for cast bullets, I wouldn't even bother with a Mosin. Plus when you buy a Mosin, it's a crap-shoot as to the bore diameter you get. I've owned several and they have run from .312" to .314".
35W

 

[Ash]

Remember, he's in Canada where 303 British is a very ubiquitous caliber and so, the proper diameter bullets, including high-grade ones, should be readily available.

Ash

 

[cracked butt]

The K31 is more expensive than M44/38 because it is more refined blah blah.

Yep, its the difference between buying a lightly used Mercedes and a rusted out 1981 Chevy Cavalier- for nearly the same price. LOL

. Would it be cheaper in the long run to just reload 7.5 Swiss with .308 bullets than trying to scrounge up non-existent 7.62x54R surplus or trying to reload it? I hear that the .311 rounds are expensive/hard to find.

7.5 Swiss is very easy to reload. .284 WIN brass is fairly easy to find as a lot of people base wildcat cartridges off it. Any standard 130-175 gr .308 bullets will work fine- also use .308 win load data to keep the pressures low and safe. The K-31s are very easy rifles to get to shoot well with handloads. For the Mosin nagant, you could use .310, .308, .311, .312" bullets for reloading- each rifle is going to like something different due to a wide variation in bore and groove dimensions. Did I mention that K-31 bores and grooves are at least as consistant as modern .30 caliber rifles?

 

[dak0ta]

It's amazing how such well designed Swiss rifles can sell for almost the same price.

I did find a bubba'd M44/M38 in a synthetic sporting stock and comes with 2 boxes of 7.62x54R for $100. Good deal? I still rather get the K31 since once those 2 boxes are done with, then I have to scrounge for ammo.

 

[Ash]

Cracked,

You know that is well beyond exaggeration. It is more like a BMW in original used condition compared to a rebuilt Ford F150 - rebuilt to like-new.

Ash

 

[cracked butt]

rebuilt Ford F150 - rebuilt to like-new

I bought a new ford once where a few thousand miles down the road I had to replace the intake manifold- it was warped because they 'forgot' to install one of the bolts at the factory. It also burned oil really bad after about 30,000 miles- Mechanic at the ford garage told me that some of the engines were built with really wide tolerances and some oil burning is to be expected, he told me that Toyotas and Hondas were built with very tight tolerances- these were the words right out of the mouth of a mechanic at a Ford dealership in around 1990. So your analogy might actually be about right.


I have seen a lot of 'rearsenaled to new condition' 91/30s, M44s, and M38s with horribly corroded sewer pipe bores, I've never seen such neglect on a swiss rifle.

 

[Titus]

In the M-Ns defense, the Russians probably had more opportunities to "neglect" their rifles than the Swiss. But for a shooter, you'll definitely want to check that out before buying an M-N. With the K-31, you're pretty safe buying them without seeing them first.

 

[Ash]

What ever. Exaggerate if you feel it makes your point stronger. The Mosin was never a poor-quality action, though without any doubt it is more crude than the k31. However, as generally do not buy without looking down the bore, I very seriously doubt that would be a problem in this case.

Ash

 

[cracked butt]

The Mosin was never a poor-quality action, though without any doubt it is more crude than the k31. However, as generally do not buy without looking down the bore, I very seriously doubt that would be a problem in this case.

The actions are actually pretty good when put together right, the russian barrels are crap. I've never heard of a K-31 that didn't shoot well, but you'd have to look long and hard to find a russian mosin that will shoot as well as a K-31.

 

[Mike 56]

One thing to consider is my Finnish and post war Mosin Nagant's shoot .308 bullets very well. It is hard to compare a K-31 with a Mosin Nagant unless it is a M39 and their a lot more money but worth every penny.

Mike

 

[redactor]

Get both (K31 first), then load for what ever bullets you can find for cheaper at the time.

 

[Ash]

Cracked, you must not have seen a whole lot of mosins. I'd be happy to show you some pretty good Russian barrels. Crap? Come on, you know better than that. Sure, some can be bad, the product of wartime cuts, and certainly the K31 is the better rifle than Soviet 91/30's built in desperation. But I have seen plenty of Mosins that shoot as accurate as any k98k or Enfield - and that does not include a jaunt down into Finnish country.

Ash

 

[cracked butt]

Cracked, you must not have seen a whole lot of mosins

Not too many, 8 or 9 on the last count, 2 are worth taking to the range to shoot, neither of those two will come anywhere close to any of the 6 k-31s that I currently have , let alone the Swiss 1911 rifle.

 

[Ash]

Nor would I expect them to. They were fundamentally built for two different kind of soldier (though still conscripts, the Swiss were certainly better educated and were not in desperate need for firearms). Yet, I wager my 1943 Tula PU Sniper would compete rather well against any K31. Of course, again, two different purposes.

The various Schmidt-Ruben based arms are without doubt fine arms and probably more accurate, one-for-one, than any martial arm provided for general service to any infantry in the world.

Yet, again, it does depend on the required use. For the ranch, the various Mosin carbines, especially the 91/59, might actually make a better rifle than the k31. It may not, as it depends entirely on the needs of the user.

But, as to rifles, I will gladly compare any 28/30 to any K31 - and those WERE wartime products.

Ash

 

[dak0ta]

Anybody know which are the best reloading dies for the 7.5x55? Lees or Redding?

 

[cracked butt]

Redding is supposed to have dies that are 'correct' for the k-31 chamber, I don't have a set. RCBS and Lee are made so that they will work with the 1911 chamber which is dimensioned slightly differently. I use RCBS dies in 7.5x55 and FWIW, they work perfectly so long as you full length resize every time. If you try to partially FL resize, the shoulder gets squeezed down and pushed forward and the brass will not chamber.