Educators Debate Efforts to Rename Schools that are named after Confederate Leaders

[Glock Glockler]

Tejon,

How is New England or New Hampshire deciding to go on their own making war upon the US? If NH decded to take over the Washington govt by force of arms, I concede that you have a point, but that is not the same as if one simply goes their own way.

Were all the tiny countries in Europe making war on the various empires that held them because they wanted to go on thier own? Sweden and Norway were once joined and it was peacefully dissolved, not a shot was fired.

To make war against someone is to take an active step in engagement with a party, seceeding is removing oneself from that engagement and cutting those political ties. Comparing secession to treason is like comparing a woman leaving her husband to him beating her.

 

[Azrael256]

I think that's ridiculous.

No, it's not ridiculous, it's absolute genius. This isn't about cultural sensitivity, or who owned slaves but didn't want to, or who started what war. It's about the "useful idiots" trying to erase people from history. It's that whole controlling the past to control the future thing. Erase names like Jefferson Davis or Robert E. Lee, and pretty soon you'll be erasing names like George Washington... oh, wait, they already did. It's just the beginning now, but these idiots are going to make things ba-a-a-a-ad down the road.

 

[XavierBreath]

Tejon,
It seems as though you hold two firm beliefs. One is that secession is treason. The other is that the War Between the States was fought over slavery. Because of that, we will never come to a concensus. I would like to give you some food for thought though. If you don't want it, skip the next two paragraphs, OK?

Southerners were forced between defending their state or their country. Treason against their state or their country. Many held their state and a decentralized government in higher regard than a centralized government. At the time it was not illegal for a state to withdraw from the United States. It became treason by virtue of the United States' view of secession. So Joe Southerner was put in the position of defend his home or surrender. Many Southerners to this day look at Lincoln and the US government and then look at Janet Reno and Waco and see only a difference in scale. These questions of individual freedom are still being debated today. The only difference is today is the government has the last say, not the people. If the US government decided to invade your state and destroy your way of life, would you fight, submit, or run? Consider the Patriot Act, the RKBA debate, and a whole host of other issues today. If the US Army invaded your state with the purpose of removing your means of providing for your family, and your means of defending yourself, what would you do? Today, federal law reigns supreme. In 1861 it did not. In 1775 the colonies fought for their independence. They won. In 1861 the Southern states fought for their independence. They lost. History is written by the victorious. It is not always accurate, and it seldom tells both sides of the story.

Thousands of Southerners who fought to the death in the Civil War had never owned a single slave. People go to war for many reasons. To say that all or no Southerners fought for the preservation of slavery is simplistic. This time in history was much more complex than that. If it was fought over slavery, then why was it that Lincoln waited until 1863 to free a single slave? And why did that freeing of slaves only apply to Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana (except the parishes of St. Bernard, Palquemines, Jefferson, St. John, St. Charles, St. James, Ascension, Assumption, Terrebone, Lafourche, St. Mary, St. Martin, and Orleans, including the city of New Orleans), Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, and Virginia (except the forty-eight counties designated as West Virginia, and also the counties of Berkeley, Accomac, Morthhampton, Elizabeth City, York, Princess Anne, and Norfolk, including the cities of Norfolk and Portsmouth)?

Trying to isolate why a war was fought is like trying to keep stink in a roadkill skunk. It just isn't going to happen. wars are fought by thousands of men, and each man has his own reasons.

To the story at hand though, at least these so called educators realize that Stonewall Jackson and Jefferson Davis are associated with the Civil War. Now if they can learn to do simple math and teach our children, we just may get somewhere. Educators in this country need to start worrying about important things, like education.

 

[kbr80]

The Southern flags embody the motivation of hatred and the preservation of slavery. It was the American flag that defeated this.

Didn't the American Flag fly over slavery long before the CSA was born?

 

[Dilettante]

This time in history was much more complex than that. If it was fought over slavery, then why was it that Lincoln waited until 1863 to free a single slave?

Slavery was abolished in DC and in the territories in 1862.
In 1861 Lincoln turned down a number of compromise proposals that would have expanded slavery into the territories.

And why did that freeing of slaves only apply to Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana (except the parishes of St. Bernard, Palquemines, Jefferson, St. John, St. Charles, St. James, Ascension, Assumption, Terrebone, Lafourche, St. Mary, St. Martin, and Orleans, including the city of New Orleans),...

The Emancipation Proclamation depended on wartime powers of the President. It did not apply to areas not in rebellion.

Abolishing slavery completely required a Constitutional amendment, which Lincoln backed even when the 1864 election looked uncertain.

 

[Tamara]

Malone Laveigh,

They should rename all of the private white academies for the Confederate leaders and rename all of the public schools something that won't offend the vast majority of the public school students, who are, unfortunately, black.

What?!?

That's a joke, right?

You don't really think that the "vast majority" of public school students are black, do you? (If you do, it explains a lot. )

 

[greyhound]

It's just the beginning now, but these idiots are going to make things ba-a-a-a-ad down the road.

Yup, historical revisionism is a lovely thing: take today's mores and values, and apply them to historical times, when the mores and values were different.

Given that what we call "human rights" is a relatively modern thing, its easy to use historical revisionism to show that the US is an "evil oppressor".

Just another little trick by the transnationalists to show why its so important that "we're all one world now" rather than a nation...

 

[XavierBreath]

Dilettante
Why did Lincoln wait two years? Surely he could write faster than that. Perhaps it was because he had more important things at hand? Like a Civil War he needed to justify? Justification of military conflict after the fact is still happening today. Do you think it couldn't happen in 1861?

 

[Obiwan]

What is forgotten is that many blacks fought on both sides.

In the South they were integrated into standing units and paid far better that in the North where they fought in segregated units.

 

[El Tejon]

Obiwan, and when Blacks were allowed into the CSA military, the Confederate Congress declared that it undermined the reason for leaving the Union.

 

[Malone LaVeigh]

You don't really think that the "vast majority" of public school students are black, do you?

In the parts of the South I'm intimately familiar with, "vast majority" would not be an overstatement. Maybe you have information on other parts of the South?

 

[Tamara]

Malone Laveigh,

Maybe you have information on other parts of the South?

Only the parts I spent the last 26 years of my life in, where I attended public schools for grades 3-12...

(PS: BTW, there's only one state in the South where African Americans are even a plurality. Can you name it? )

(PPS: Seeing as how African-Americans make up roughly 15% of the total population of the US, even if 100% of the public school students in Possum Hollow are black, this does not make "the vast majority" of public school students in the US black, n'est-ce pas?)

 

[Malone LaVeigh]

That's right, change the argument. Please show me where I said the vast majority of public school students in the US are black. Also, it doesn't require that blacks make up a majority of any state for the majority of students in the public schools be black. Demographics and white flight, my dear. I based my statement on my observations. It may not be true anymore in the entire South, but it sure seems to be in most of Mississippi.

Edited to add:

Malone "Proud alumnus of Davis Elementary in Greenwood and Jeff Davis JC on the Gulf Coast" LaVeigh

 

[oweno]

and speaking of names, two of the early Polaris boats (1960s) were:

SSBN 601 USS Robert E. Lee

SSBN 634 USS Stonewall Jackson

I doubt that either name would (or could) be chosen for a new submarine today.

Oh well, at least we could honor them back then.

 

[Biff]

Both Jackson and Lee were personally opposed to slavery. They took up arms in defense of their country (Virginia) which was under attack by foreign invaders (Federal Army). In 1860 people thought of their states as their countries, with the USA being a republic or confederation of these distinct states for the purpose of mutual benefit and defense - similar to the EU today. It was unthinkable that troops from one state would cross a border into another.

Jackson actually did quite a bit for the betterment of blacks in his community. Before the war, he taught a Sunday School class for blacks, both slave and free, at the Presbyterian church in Lexington, VA. In this class, he made it one of his tasks to teach his students to read, (which was illegal throughout most of the south) so they could study the Word of God. Once, during the war, after a particularly large battle, his pastor recieved a letter from him. Thinking they were going to be getting news of this battle that their local hero had been engaged in, the pastor began to read the letter to the townspeople gathered around him. Jackson mentioned not one word of the war, but was concerned and eager that someone would write him and let him know how his Sunday School students were getting along. After the war, some of his former students went on into the ministry, founding other churches, some of which are still active today.

 

[bfason]

However, one does not see schools in Germany after Nazi party leaders now.

Actually, you might be surprised. When I went to school there, I lived in a student dormitory named after after a prominent Nazi doctor. Europe's history hangs over the present like a ghost that in a way that is difficult to describe to Americans who have never lived there. I lived right around the corner from where Klaus Barbie lived when he was recruited by US intelligence. A few blocks away there was a street that was hundreds of years old called "Judengasse," or in English "Jew Alley." And the debates raged about whether the names should be changed or not, but not necessarily along the lines that you might think. Some argued that the names should be changed in order to to not honor the more disgraceful elements of German history. Others insisted that they should not be changed so that the mistakes of the previous generation should not be forgotten.

You'd turn the corner and all of a sudden there would be some unpleasant but necessary reminder of the harsh and not-so-distant past. There was an empty lot in the middle of town which contained a memorial to a synagogue which had been destroyed during Krystallnacht. Then I'd cycle out and enter small towns which had statues honoring the fallen of the Wehrmacht. Wierd place overall.

What to do with the past? There are plenty of statues on the University of Texas honoring white male oppressive slave-owners. Every states in the South has roads and hospitals named after Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis.

And along come these leftwing PC ethnic cleansers telling us to tear down those statues. My response to them is not printable.

 

[Tamara]

Malone Laveigh,

That's right, change the argument. Please show me where I said the vast majority of public school students in the US are black.

...

rename all of the public schools something that won't offend the vast majority of the public school students, who are, unfortunately, black.

Sincerely,
A graduate of suburban Joseph Wheeler public high school, 90+% of whose students were white.

 

[fallingblock]

watch out,Tamara.....

Malone's memory is slipping again!

 

[JohnBT]

"The Confederates fought to keep their slaves."

I'm sorry, but that is a statement not supported by facts. Any facts. The vast majority of Southerners did not own slaves - so how could they fight to keep what they didn't have?

I understand that the statement is likely intended to mean that the government/leaders started the war to 'keep their slaves', but that is not what it says.

The majority of Southerners at the time of the Civil War were poor dirt farmers who couldn't afford a pair of new shoes every year - and people think they could afford to buy and feed a slave. This lifestyle continued well into the 20th century. In the case of my dad's parents it continued into the 1960s (they did make a bunch of money selling Albemarle Pippen apples to England during the Depression, but that was just a strange stroke of luck. the Queen liked them - the apples that is.) I learned a lot of this initially as a child by talking to my grandparents who were born around 1890 and my parents who were born in the early '20s. Not much really happened to improve the economy of the South until the introduction of air conditioning attracted businesses from other regions. Yeah, there were some factories, but the workers didn't make much.

John

P.S. - Remember: The Emancipation Proclamation only applied to the areas in revolt - where it could not be enforced. The slaves in the North were not freed until AFTER the war. If the war was about slavery, then why did the North wait to free their own slaves?

P.P.S. - Did you know that U.S. Grant's wife owned slaves throughout the war?

 

[JohnBT]

I forgot. Jeff White, about your original post...I got as far as "Educators Debate..." and lost interest.

As a white, middle-aged Virginian whose family (both sides) has been here since before the Revolutionary War, I say let the students vote on the school names if they care to, but keep the educators out of it.

OTOH, we have civic leaders who from time to time voice the desire to remove the statues from Monument Avenue (except the Arthur Ashe statue I suppose.) My response: Can I have one? I'm not picky... but Lee, Jackson or Stuart would look good in my yard.

John

 

[RandyB]

I have family that fought for the North and the South (my fathers side were Yankees, moms Confederate). While the legal issue over slavery was the reason for the wars beginnings. This issue over a State having the right to leave the Union was the reason for the war. Personally none of my southern family owned slaves and knew they never would (they were sharecroppers for the most part). They fought because thier homes were being invaded. If Canada/Mexico/etc. decided that they didn't like the way were were done things in our own state/country and invaded, how many of you would fight for home and family? How many posts have I seen of folks ready to defend our homes from our own national government? North or South, they fought for a cause that they believed in and at the time , not looking back fro today, how many of those Southern Heroes fought and died for defense of their homes and family? As Lee said, I cannot fight against my home state of Virginia. It wasn't a question of slavery, it was a question of which came first my state, or my country?

For give my ranting and ravings, but to look at this in a black & white issue is wrong, their are far too many shades of grey on the reasons why the War of Northern Agression/Civil War was fought.

Personally I'd be as honored to go to Sherman/Lee/Grant/Jackson, etc. school as any other. These men fought for a cause, and we need to look at how they percived the cause and how they fought. Comparing them to Hilter and his minions, who practiced genocide, is in my opinion unfair.

 

[cratz2]

My only complaint about the renaming of schools named for 'questionable figures' is one of lack of thinking in the part of communities. I don't think a schoolboard or a small group of politicians should be able to change the name of a school... If enough registered voters want to change the name of something, then make it so. But I can't agree with changing the name of 'Jefferson Davis Middle School' to 'Malcolm X Central Technical' or somesuch...

And I definately tend to think this is a bit of a diversionary tactic to cloud more serious issues going on in the area.

 

[Malone LaVeigh]

Tamara,

Context is everything, darlin'. It should be obvious to anyone reading my post that the subject was about public schools in the South. Is that the best you can do?

But all of that said, I'm willing to admit that there might be as much desegregation by neighborhood in the South as in the North. I guess whites in some places would rather move to their own neighborhoods and send the kids to majority-white public schools than continue to support private schools. In my home town, there is one elementary school in the richer part of town that is probably majority white. There is only one public high school, though, and most whites go to private school then.

I looked for links at several Southern state depts of education, all I found talked about how desegregated the schools have become in recent years. I would still submit that the schools named after Confederate leaders tend to be in the older parts of town, which in many places have become predominately black while whites fled to the 'burbs.