Confederate flag removed from memorial site

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2dogs

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During the 60's, at least up here in the North, the Confederate flag was seen as a symbol of rebellion and was popular amongst the hippie, anti war crowd- I don't think most folks around here associated it with slavery or racism (perhaps naivette?).

Anyway, given that slavery was an abomination, I still don't see why all of the ridiculous hoopla about removing it, other than liberals once again playing the race card.

What in h@ll is wrong with the Confederate flag being displayed at a Confederate memorial site- what flag should be shown? This is just @ssinine.






http://foxnews.com/story/0,2933,75519,00.html

Missouri Officials Take Down Confederate Flags After Gephardt Complaint







Tuesday, January 14, 2003

JEFFERSON CITY, Mo. — State officials took down Confederate flags at two historic sites Tuesday after Democratic presidential hopeful Dick Gephardt said they shouldn't be flown anywhere.





Confederate battle flags were removed at the Confederate Memorial Historic Site and the Fort Davidson Historic Site, said Sue Holst, spokeswoman for the Missouri Department of Natural Resources. The flags will still be displayed inside the sites' visitor centers.

Over the weekend, Gephardt said: "My own personal feeling is that the Confederate flag no longer has a place flying any time, anywhere in our great nation."

Mary Still, spokeswoman for Gov. Bob Holden, said she called Natural Resources Director Steve Mahfood after reading an Associated Press story about Gephardt's statement.

"I told Steve it seemed to me it wouldn't be appropriate to have it flying on a flagpole, but that I didn't know all of their considerations and I left it in his lap," Still said. She said the governor, a former Gephardt aide, didn't know about the conversation.

The Missouri leader of a Confederate heritage organization said politicians were trying to erase state history.

"They take our tax money and then they turn around and try to destroy our heritage," said Gene Dressel, state commander of Sons of Confederate Veterans.

In Atlanta, some 300 people marched to the Capitol, demanding a statewide vote on bringing back the old Georgia flag with its big Confederate emblem.

The current flag, featuring a tiny image of the Confederate emblem, was adopted in 2001 at the behest of Democratic Gov. Roy Barnes. He blamed his ouster last fall on public anger over the new flag.

Barnes' successor, Republican Sonny Perdue, criticized Barnes for changing the flag without public input. On Tuesday, he said he supports a nonbinding public referendum but would leave the details to lawmakers.

Gephardt waded into the flag controversy last weekend after visiting the South Carolina. He said the flag flying at the Confederate Soldier Monument near South Carolina's Statehouse "is a hurtful, divisive symbol and in my view has no place flying anywhere, in any state in this country."

In South Carolina, the flag was removed from the Statehouse dome in July 2000 after an economic boycott led by the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People.

In Missouri, the flag had flown for decades without controversy or criticism from public officials at the Confederate memorial near Higginsville. The remains of 694 Confederate veterans and 108 wives are buried at the site.

The Fort Davidson site commemorates the 1864 Battle of Pilot Knob.
 
El Tejon,

I see the winners are still writing the history books. I don't know what you were taught about When The North Invaded America, but it was probably a little biased... ;)

That's okay, by the time my generation dies nobody will be standing when they play "Dixie" any more.
 
What's wrong with it? It's a symbol of treason and racism.

Well, I don't consider myself treasonous or racist, nor do i see anything wrong with the flag.

Some folks consider George Washington and all slave owning founding fathers racist and, if not treasonous then hypocritical.

But let's get rid of anything, anywhere that could possible offend anyone. What do suppose will be left?:D
 
Tam, glad I still serve as your pop up target. Geez. Stand for Dixie? What on earth for? Was it played as background music for Carson Praire Scott on Michigan during sales?

So the winners write history. It just so happens that those who were right also won the War of Southern Treason.

That being said, the final removal of these symbols should be done by the residents of those states and not by grandstanding of silly politicians.
 
I think the flag still serves to remind us all of the War of Northern Aggression and how Washington has long felt that they need to run everyone's business.
Dispite revisionist history, what the war was really about was the 10th amendment vs total federal control. Does that remind you of any more recent federal moves relative to a well known amendment? (Hint: 2nd)
 
El Tejon-I really don't have time to give you a history lesson on states rights, or taxation without representation. People in the South have some pride in their heritage, and no matter what you or others think, the War of Northern Aggression was not about racism. Also-aren't you the one complaining about getting a CCW in Fl? Well I-75 goes South and North, and we really don't care how you do it up North.
I have toured many Civil War battlefields throughout my life, and at each and every one, I have paid homage to the slain warriors on both sides. Has'nt both sides earned the right to be honored by their colors? To you it may be a symbol of racism, but to those men it was worth dying for. How would you feel if the French decided to replace the American flags at Normandy with their own? I'm sure there are many French that thinks our flag stands for racism. So please don't apply todays P.C. B.S. to something that has happened 138 years ago-respect the symbol that those young men fought and died for-right or wrong.

P.S. If you come down Tallahassee way, you have an open invitation to come to the range with me. Might just throw in some N.Fl bar-B-Que into that offer.
 
Said in the friendliest tone my fingers can manage

glad I still serve as your pop up target. Geez. Stand for Dixie? What on earth for? Was it played as background music for Carson Praire Scott on Michigan during sales? So the winners write history. It just so happens that those who were right also won the War of Southern Treason.
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What do you expect from a yankee lawyer?
;)
 
Should the flag be flown over government buildings? Yeah, I can see how that would bother people. It is a symbol of separatism and rebellion after all. To many people it is also a symbol of racism and bigotry, so flying it over the statehouse might be a bit much.

But these are confederate war monuments. During the Civil War people would literally fight and die for the flag and regimental standards. Where else should it be flown? Are you going to fly the Stars and Stripes there? Those men would be rolling over in your graves if you did. If the confederate flag belongs anywhere in America today it belongs on those monuments. These people are destroying a little bit of history every time they do something like this. The true tragedy of the Civil War will be forgotten and that my friends is dangerous.

As for Gephart, I'm not surprised. Gephart is an Eagle Scout. Yet when congress moved to cut funding for the Boy Scouts because they were "too discriminatory", he was officially recorded with a "no comment".

By the way I was born and raised in Pennsylvania. If I had lived during the civil war, I would have fought for the Union. That doesn't mean I can't recognize the valor of the men who fought in gray against their brothers in blue.
 
Symbol of racism my ***. For it to be a symbol of racism all those men who died for the Confederacy would have had to be fighting for slavery and they weren't. They were fighting for freedom. Their own.

I do believe I am going to hoist one on the lots' pole this week just to listen to the whining.
 
I'll bet no one ever heard the (CIVIL?) war called by its true name. We always called it the WAR OF NORTHERN AGRESSION.

The war was not fought over slavery which was already on its way out as it was not particularly cost effective. The financial costs for the care and well being of other humans from the cradle to the grave far outweighed the expenditures of simply hiring a sharecropper for a daily wage,with no responsibility for his health or lodging or clothing etc.


The war was fought over a subject that should be near and dear to THRs , STATES RIGHTS. The right of each state to determine its own policies without interferene from the Federal Government.

The fact that Slavery was made the rallying cry was merely incidental in the overall scheme of things.

The Confederate battle flag is no more a symbol of slavery than is any other battle flag. Tens of thousands of Southerners who believed in their right to self determination fought and died under that flag, and as such should have it proudly flown at any memorial honoring the Dead.
 
The Confederate battle flag is no more a symbol of slavery than is any other battle flag. Tens of thousands of Southerners who believed in their right to self determination fought and died under that flag, and as such should have it proudly flown at any memorial honoring the Dead.
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Gotta disagree with ya here.

I agree that the American Civil War (I like to call it the 2nd American Revolution) was not really about slavery. The slavery angle had very little to do with it. After all, Lincoln didn't even get around to issuing the Emancipation Proclamation until 1863.

However, the Confederate battle flag is a symbol of racism. Not because of what it stood for in 1861, but because of the way it has been co-opted by racist groups since. A symbol is only as good as the emotion behind it, and when people see that flag now, most of them aren't thinking about proud antebellum Southern tradition and heritage. They're thinking about the Klan. They're thinking about skinheads. They're thinking about burning crosses.

The "Stars and Bars" symbolizes racism now, just like a swastika symbolizes anti-Semitism. Maybe not to you. But to the vast majority does, and that's what counts.

So, next time you're angry about the Confederate battle flag being taken down from yet another public place, and you want to take it out on someone, find the first Klansman you can find, and spit in his face. Because it's their fault that the flag now stands for racism.

Back to the original topic, I think it's stupid that they took the Confederate flag down from a Confederate memorial. Seems a little disrespectful to the dead. Thanks, KKK.
 
Everything is about economics. The Southern states were on the right side of the civil war. The fact that the South (who in the South) supported slavery does not change that, nor does the fact that the South was in the right make their support for slavery any less disgusting.

As for treason, I would submit that George Washington committed more and greater acts of treason during the Whiskey Rebellion than anyone in the Confederacy ever did during the civil war. And let's not bring up Lincoln and all of his crimes against humanity...

- Chris
 
2dogs --
It's Heritage, not hate.
It's one more rally point for the sniveling blissninnies to get whipped up into a froth over.

Besides, the War of Northern Aggression would have turned out differently at Gettysburg, had Jackson not taken friendly fire.

Slavery was an abomination. Racism sucks.
Self-determination does not.
 
A. If the Starry Cross is a symbol of racism, then so is the Stars and Stripes and the Union Jack. It was under those flags that slaves were brought here, and under those flags that campaigns of genocide were perpetrated against the aboriginal Americans. And if I am not mistaken, the KKK flies the US flag as well as the rebel flag.

B. A "civil war" is a war fought within a nation between factions vying for control of that nation. The 1861-1864 war was an attempt (successful) by one nation to re-conquer another nation. We do not call the Russian actions in Chechnya a civil war.

C.
Over the weekend, Gephardt said: "My own personal feeling is that the Confederate flag no longer has a place flying any time, anywhere in our great nation."
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There go his chances of being elected president!
 
ahenry, I fully admit to my bias as a Yankee. However, if you see that others can have a different perspective, how about the African-Americans who reside in the South? Shouldn't they have a right to be angry about a government endorsing this symbol of hatred and racism?

Dad, thanks for the invite. You are very kind.

Dad & Chris, whatever the motive behind treason it is still treason. When the New England states got angry over footing the freight for the South and openly discussed treason did not a Southern President threaten to hang them all if they did not knock it off? Andrew Jackson was right and the New Englanders were wrong.

If the War of Southern Treason were about economics, then why the big stink about slavery in the succession statements of the Southern states? Is it right to commit treason over economics?

"States rights" has been the most popular rehab theory for the Southern revisionist historians. However, the Southern states were fighting for the "right" to own individuals and were willing to levy war upon the United States of America to accomplish this purported right.

The South, and the South alone, must sort out their legacy through the private interaction of individuals. To attempt to force them to rid themselves of these symbols is to compel them to hang onto them longer.
 
3 national flags, a state flag, and an overly popular battle flag. For me they do not stand for treason or racism. They stand for honor, loyalty and defending one's home. My Virginia family had many serve in the ranks of the Confederacy. Some died. Most did not own slaves, some did. Slavery was not the issue however, many in the north maintained slaves as well in the role of domestic servants in urban settings which is what my family had. All fought for Virginia first, things woulda been peachy if the north woulda stayed north of the river.

Today no one would find me racist although I'm quick to point out that as a white male I suffer discrimination too. No one would call me treasonous either, but that's not what my ancestors were called either, they were called rebellious. This country was founded in rebellion and will suffer greatly if that spirit is ever lost. I do not think that the various flags should exist in places of government, I find the rush to change state flags as rather revisionist though. Private display is just that. Over the graves of old soldiers? Well, they didn't die fighting under the Stars and Stripes, they deserve their honor. I dare anyone to go into Hollywood cemetery in Richmond and take the flags down from the Confederate memorial.

More on racism or treason? How about the flag I'm currently fond of, the Stars and Stripes? How long was racism officially endorsed under it? How about slavery? How many traitors have and continue to wrap themselves in it to hide their true colors? Yes, Old Glory is a little tainted by Americans of lesser stripes, but I still love her for the ideals she represents, just like the other flags I mentioned. For those of present and future who try to taint it and make America what they want it to be, I refer them to my state flag I mentioned. Sic Semper Tyrannis.

That's okay, by the time my generation dies nobody will be standing when they play "Dixie" any more
Click to expand...

My kids will, just like the national anthem.
 
The "Stars and Bars" symbolizes racism now, just like a swastika symbolizes anti-Semitism. Maybe not to you. But to the vast majority does, and that's what counts
Click to expand...

The "Stars and Bars" was the first national flag of the confederacy. I doubt many know what it looks like. You are referring to what started out as a battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia and went from there. It was incorporated into the fields of the second and third national flags.
 
People on both sides trot out their facts either trying to support the idea that the War Between the States was about slavery or that it wasn’t. Let me try to put some personal evidence into the mix.

My family participated in the First American Revolution (documented). Towards the end of the affair, there was this one little battle that took place. Seems a British officer had some rather impolite things to say to some mountain type people. This British gentleman wanted to let those backwards American know what he would do them if they insisted on continuing this nasty little Rebellion. So, all the men in my family packed up with the rest of the men in the area (documented), crossed a few mountains (hence “The Over Mountain Menâ€), joining up with some other “backwoods types†along the way, wound up on this place called Kings Mountain, South Carolina. Here they proceeded to kicked a little British arse and told that British officer just what they thought of his threat. Unfortunately, that poor British officer managed to get himself shot and killed. In case you cared he was Col Patrick Ferguson, the dude that came up with that nifty rifle and the battle was the turning point of the Revolution in the South.

Few years later, another group of people decided to try and tell some states what they could and couldn’t do. Since my family still hadn’t learned how to kowtow to anybody, they all joined up to tell those “damnyanks†where they could shove it. This time things didn’t turn out as well for my family. They made it home, but they lost in the end. As far as we have been able to determine none of my family ever owned a slave, or even supported the idea of slavery. Despite having fought and bled for an idea, the same idea their fathers fought and bled for, their memories and their names are constantly besmirched by others. People that say they fought for slavery. People that say they were racist. People that say their banner represents evil. People that say those things fill me with gloom. If these people can’t understand history, how can they ever learn from it?
 
If the War of Southern Treason were about economics, then why the big stink about slavery in the succession statements of the Southern states?
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As I recall, slavery only became a major issue two years after the war started, when Lincoln issued the EP (which, by the way, freed only the slaves in the Southern States. Slavery continued in the North for several more years.)

Is it right to commit treason over economics?
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How is secession treason?

However, the Southern states were fighting for the "right" to own individuals and were willing to levy war upon the United States of America to accomplish this purported right.
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Uh, no. The South could have continued to own individuals if they had stayed in the Union. Economic autonomy was a FAR bigger issue.

- Chris
 
After all, Lincoln didn't even get around to issuing the Emancipation Proclamation until 1863.
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One little fact in addition to this statement proves the war was not about slavery. Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation only freed the slaves in the states that were in rebellion (ie the South). Had absolutely no effect on the slaves in the northern states. It was done in an attempt to cause disruption in the south. Lincoln didn't even worry about the slaves fate if they did in fact cause problems in the south and wind up dead because of his proclamation.
 
ahenry, I fully admit to my bias as a Yankee. However, if you see that others can have a different perspective, how about the African-Americans who reside in the South? Shouldn't they have a right to be angry about a government endorsing this symbol of hatred and racism?
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And you still haven’t grasped what is being said. My family and the families of hundreds of other people that fought for the Confederacy did not fight for hatred, racism, slavery, or any of the other buzz words you yanks like to toss around.
 
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