Effectiveness of pistol calibers in rifles?

[DHart]

Since defense-use pistol caliber ammo tends to be designed for use in short (4 to 6") barrels, is one making a huge leap of faith to assume such ammo will perform reasonably well from an 18.5" carbine?

Case in point... I'm trying to determine what some excellent defense loads would be for .357mag, .44special, .45 Colt, and .44magnum. Problem is, the magnum ammo tends to become exceedingly fast from a long barrel, making the bullet which was designed to expand properly at pistol launched velocities probably expand too quickly at rifle velocities. And in the case of the relatively tame .44 special load, what would it do from an 18" barrel?

Has anyone here done any testing of pistol caliber defense ammo from a carbine - enough to recommend any specific factory loads?

I'd like to find a great defense load for each of the above calibers when fired from a 17" to 20" barrel.

Appreciate your thoughts.

 

[1911Tuner]

Pistol Rifles

Howdy DHart,

I can relate what I found in .44 magnum between a 6-inch
M-29 and a Winchester Trapper carbine (16.1-inch barrel)



A handload of XX.X grains Hodgdon's H-110 and a 240-grain
Hornady XTP bullet produced app. 1300 and 1750 fps respectively, for a net gain of about 450 fps in the carbine. A substantial gain which put the .44 carbine nearly on a par with the .35 Remington energy-wise out to about 50 yards. The heavy XTP bullet didn't fragment on impact with wetpack newspaper at 25 and 50 yards, and continued to expand well at a hundred with ample penetration. If more penetration and less expansion is needed, you can either go to a 240-grain soft point or the 265-grain bullet that was originally designed for the old .444 Marlin. I was able to get that one up to around 1500 fps in the carbine, and was even able to get light expansion at 50 yards.

I won't give actual powder charges, since they were right on the peg, and
may be too much for another rifle or revolver. The slow-burning powder produced much more consistent velocities in the carbine than in the revolver, and the accuracy was outstanding for lever-action carbine.

I've also seen a net gain of about 300 fps between a revolver and a Trapper carbine in .45 Colt caliber. The gain was less, probably due to the
fact that I used a slightly faster powder, (2400) and I had to keep the pressures lower. The difference was about the same with a 250-grain jacketed bullet and a 300-grain cast SWC.

Luck!

Tuner

 

[Z_Infidel]

I can only comment on the .357 Mag in a carbine length barrel. The .357 Mag gets a very significant boost in the longer gun, perhaps more than any other caliber. As you hint at, performance of JHP ammo at such velocities may not be optimal. I always shoot 158 gr soft point bullets in my 1894C, and they work very well for me in various applications. There are other loads that might be better suited to specific requirements.

 

[iamkris]

rusbil

Sorry I can't agree with you in full. In the hands of a good person, a lever action is EXTREMELY fast. Hang around a cowboy action shoot if you want to see fast rifle shooting with a lever gun. Actually those guys fire their single action revolvers faster than most people can shoot autos.

I personally use one in both CAS and a 3-gun event that only allows pistol caliber rifle/carbines. I give nothing up to the guys using USCs and ARs.

As for reloading in combat, yes of course it is slower to reload than a mag fed rifle, but then again, 90%+ of self defense situations where you would use a rifle are not going to exhaust the mag capacity of a lever gun (usually 10+). Is more better, yes, I'm just saying that it doesn't preclude the lever gun as a valid option.

As for the 9mm vs. 223 debate: 1) it's been hashed out before and frankly there's a bit of voodoo in the arguments on both sides, 2) the original poster didn't even mention 9mm and 3) maybe he WANTS to use a pistol caliber.

 

[iamkris]

My choice, should I ever have to defend my home at medium or longer distances (e.g., not inside a house) will be an autoloader. Preferably a short barrel FAL... but that will just cause another argument. If all I had available was my .45 Colt Win 92 would I say "my gosh, I don't have an autoloader...I'm screwed?" No

What I am saying is that a lever action is a viable rifle for home defense...that's what the original post asked about. Is it perfect? No, but it is viable. Especially if that's what you have available.

While I don't doubt that an M4 is twice as fast as a lever gun on follow up shots (.6 vs. .3 or whatever the stats are) I'm not clear how "stats" relate to real world situations. Beware the man who has one gun...he probably knows how to use it...or in other words, miss twice with an AR or hit once with a 44 mag Marlin, effect and time is the same. I'll place my confidence in the person behind the gun, not in his equipment. I regularly beat guys in competition who have WAY better equipment than mine...with my lever gun.

All I'm saying is that a lever gun shouldn't be discounted...not that it's the best.

Well, crap, just realized we've seriously hijacked this thread...probably ought to continue elsewhere.

 

[Cosmoline]

Rusbil, a 9x19 is not a .357 or .44 Mag., esp. out of a carbine. And I also suspect you're underestimating how fast a levergun can be. For close range work, it's as good as a semiauto. Out of a levergun even the lowly .357 hits harder than a .223. It's equal to a .30-30 in fact. And has greater KO power. The .44 Mag out of a levergun is substantially harder hitting than the .223. Bigger hole, more impact force.

 

[Badger Arms]

9mm from a carbine is nearly as effective as 357 Magnum from a revolver. The gain where you'll truly see a difference is with accuracy. I can make hits at 100 yards consistantly with the 9mm carbines whereas the 357 revolver is difficult.

 

[1911Tuner]

Single-Shot for Combat

That's an interesting observation rusbil, considering that
a lever-action rifle isn't a single-shot.

Seen a lotta combat, have ya there sport?

 

[iamkris]

Hey, no fair, rusbil's post disappeared...kinda makes my post look ridiculous hanging out there all by itself.

 

[1911Tuner]

rusbil

Our friend rusbil gott boot-itis just a few minutes ago. Too bad...
I was all set for a little fun before he went away.

Ah well...Onward.

 

[DHart]

I have no doubts at all about pistol caliber magnums with hard bullets for hunting purposes. My specific interest here is trying to determine the best loads using pistol ammo in carbines for *defense* use... trying to determine what bullet weights and nose-types would provide sufficient expansion without either blowing up on impact or penetrating with little or no expansion. It's a somewhat tricky aspect to nail down...

 

[1911Tuner]

Defensive use?

Say no more DHart! I thought ya just wanted to know how much velocity/energy gain to expect.

If I was gonna choose a lever gun to use to repel the Barbarian Hordes,
I think I'd hafta go with a 16-inch barreled .357 Magnum. Light, quick,
low recoil, 10 rounds with a shoot one/load one capability, and a proven
anti-personnel caliber. I think I'd opt for a handloaded 158-160 grain
softpoint for winter and a 140-grain hollowpoint for warmer climes.

 

[DHart]

Thanks Johnny, absolutely, I appreciate the data you provided and would like to understand the increase in ballistics associated with a longer barrel!...

Re: ammo, personally, I need to stick with factory ammo and I do have the 1894C in .357.

But I'd also like to try to determine what factory loads would work well for defense in my 1894 .45Colt (Speer Gold Dot, CorBon JHP, or a JSP load?) and my 1894 .44mag (Silvertips in .44special, perhaps?)

 

[shoobe01]

I do not have the data because it was on a friend's press like 5 years ago, but we made some carbine ammo for a rifle match once. Based on the carbine/smg ammo the germans and israeli's sometimes use. Over +P+, but shouldn't blow up a normal pistol that fast. I fired a bunch of extras we found later thru the Star M31 I owned and they worked fine.

Anyway, I have no recollection of the load or velocity, but they were 147s /packed/ with powder (like level with case mouth before compression). I fired from a Calico 950, 16" barrel. Aside from the 10 feet (yes, FEET) of holdover, hits at 300 yards were simple. Recoil difference in the carbine was zilch. I got a pretty good score, considering I was generally a chowderhead under match stress. A real rifle would not have helped me.

Though purely qualitative, the 147s were VERY solid hitters at 300. Plates were on the berm for one exercise, and they went straight down. The guys manning the target pit on another stage (also 300 yds) noted they were loud and kicked up dirt off the berm, unlike the .223s most people were using. I would not want to get hit with one.


Regarding my opinion on home defense, note that although I subsequently owned an HK94, and looked at UZIs, I have no pistol carbines now. Nor do I have a .223, so it could just be me.

 

[shoobe01]

Oh, one more vague, dusty thought:

There was a thick, cheap book about "The 9 mm" (or something) back in the early 80s by one of the usual gun writer suspects who wrote thick, cheap, softcover books of largely reprinted articles and reviews from their magazines.

This one had a lot of new or never-seen-by-me stuff about 9mm ballistics, including carbine performance. Actually, mostly it was about the theoretical best performance from singles and machine rests.

Besides impressive accuracy and velocity numbers (especially compared to others, like the .45 which slows down after about 8" of barrel!), it was used as a varmit caliber of sorts in the UK for years and years. Single shot break opens of considerable length were kept about for shooting...starlings, or whatever british varmits bothers british vegetable gardens. In fact, "garden gun" sorta rings a bell.

Supposedly a lot of these were in 9 mm Parabellum, and performed admirable service for many decades. I could be remembering wrong, or the article could be a fabrication. Anyone got a much bigger library than me who can look this up?

 

[44]

I think the Winchester 44mag 210gr Silvertip factory ammo is loaded to about 1300 fps at the muzzle of a 4" gun. Marshall and Sanow rate it at about 93%. It should be easy to load this bullet for a carbine so it will have this same power at 50 yards, for example. Or 100. Winchester sells these bullets to handloaders. 44

 

[DHart]

Hey 44... yes, I know that by handloading I could come up with something perfect, but for defense use, I prefer not to use handloads, but to go with factory ammo - and I know that limits me quite a bit. Plus, I don't handload anyway. SO my quest is to find factory loads in .357 and .44mag which will be effective *for defense use - not hunting* (good balance between expansion and penetration) from a 16.5" .44mag or 18.5" .357mag lever rifle.

 

[mainmech48]

Dittoes to what 'tuner said: A 16" Rossi '92 in .357 makes for pretty Big Medicine in a small package.

Less than a yard long, under six lbs. loaded, slick working and fast handling. Add a receiver sight with a generous aperture and it's tough to beat for fast, accurate hits IMO.

Also agree with his load recs, but I personally like the old Speer 146 gr. "half jacket" SWCHP for a compromise bullet. Great accuracy and spectacular terminal performance using 10.0 gr. of Blue dot. Chronos 1532 f/s from my carbine and 1128 f/s from my 6" Dan Wesson.

In a factory loading, try the WW Silvertip 145 gr. Similar performance and easy to find-even our local Wally World has them.

 

[Jim K]

There are exceptions (shooting game rules, police ammo compatibility), but in general it is MHO that anyone who lugs around a rifle so he can shoot pistol cartridges in it is just not thinking straight.

Jim