Effects of powdercoat on bullet hardness

[AJC1]

I was using soft lead bullets because I was shooting a low pressure round (45:acp minimum loads) that I powder coated and was testing if I would get leading. I have seen a formula that states 1500 psi per bhn number of hardness. This formula works for cast and lubricated bullets and has been a thumb rule for years. How does powdercoat or gas checks change the rules. Minimum loads (5 grains unique) with PC bullets worked great. Would 6.7 PC bullets work as well in 38 spl?

 

[troy fairweather]

I don't seem to care much about the hardness with powder coating. They all shoot great and never had any trouble.

 

[AR-Bossman]

I don't seem to care much about the hardness with powder coating. They all shoot great and never had any trouble.

This is what I've noticed.

 

[Obturation]

I don't worry about it either. They really can't lead cause they're coated, diameter is much more important than hardness to prevent leading. Even if I do get some build up, it comes put easy and isn't a factor until accuracy suffers- that's a lot of shooting in theory.

 

[Eddietruett]

Leading can be caused by the bore/bullet diameter size as much as the soft lead, but coated lead eliminates almost any chance. I've run them up to close to 1800 fps out of a 8 3/8" revolver with no hint of leading as well as out of a lever action a little over 2000fps. Funny, the lever action did have a little coloring of the coating in the barrel, but no leading and the color cleaned right out with a dry mop

 

[AJC1]

Leading can be caused by the bore/bullet diameter size as much as the soft lead, but coated lead eliminates almost any chance. I've run them up to close to 1800 fps out of a 8 3/8" revolver with no hint of leading as well as out of a lever action a little over 2000fps. Funny, the lever action did have a little coloring of the coating in the barrel, but no leading and the color cleaned right out with a dry mop

How hard was the lead. Just soft or are you coating bullets at full standard hardness.

 

[reddog81]

PC is just a coating. The purpose of the coating is to prevent leading. The bullet is still the same hardness and reacts the same. You can shoot powder coated lead out of a .30-06 without leading but your accuracy will be crap unless you use the correct alloy.

.45 ACP And .38 Special are low power loads and will work with soft lead, hard lead, jacketed bullets, plated bullets, etc. I’d just continue using whatever lead you’ve been using if that has worked out for you.

 

[armoredman]

I don't seem to care much about the hardness with powder coating. They all shoot great and never had any trouble.

Absolutely this, in pistol or rifle loads FOR ME, this seems to be accurate. Most cast bullets are shot as 9mm and 7.62x39mm for me, for clarity's sake.

 

[243winxb]

Minimum loads (5 grains unique) with PC bullets worked great. Would 6.7 PC bullets work as well in 38 spl?

Weight of bullets? 5.3 grs of Unique is my maximum in 38 spec with a 158 gr cast.

I like post #5. But i never coated bullets.

 

[AJC1]

Weight of bullets? 5.3 grs of Unique is my maximum in 38 spec with a 158 gr cast.

I like post #5. But i never coated bullets.

That 6.7 is the lead hardness

 

[Texas10mm]

As has been said the powder coat doesn't change the hardness of the underlying lead. However the powder coat is normally quite hard.

That "rule of thumb" is pretty much a myth. Elmer Keith did all his 44 mag work with "hard lead" meaning 16:1 alloy. Today way too many people would consider that to be too soft to work in 44 Mag.

That alloy is around a 10.3 BHN. If it was good enough for Keith it's good enough for me. I shoot for a 96:2:2 alloy which comes in right at 11 BHN. I shoot that in every pistol cartridge I load for...except for full house 327 Federal loads. Then I bump up to a 14 BHN.

 

[AJC1]

As has been said the powder coat doesn't change the hardness of the underlying lead. However the powder coat is normally quite hard.

That "rule of thumb" is pretty much a myth. Elmer Keith did all his 44 mag work with "hard lead" meaning 16:1 alloy. Today way too many people would consider that to be too soft to work in 44 Mag.

That alloy is around a 10.3 BHN. If it was good enough for Keith it's good enough for me. I shoot for a 96:2:2 alloy which comes in right at 11 BHN. I shoot that in every pistol cartridge I load for...except for full house 327 Federal loads. Then I bump up to a 14 BHN.

This is exactly the type of experiences I was seeking out. Using softer lead is an easier and cheap. I may want to harden a little from where I am currently to around 10 due to the bullets deformation so easy. This is a common reason from what I'm finding from commercial casters but I have no intention of going commercial hard.

 

[Eddietruett]

How hard was the lead. Just soft or are you coating bullets at full standard hardness.

I'm not coating my bullets. I get them from Missouri, SNS Casting and Brazos. All are HiTek Coated and work great

 

[AJC1]

I'm not coating my bullets. I get them from Missouri, SNS Casting and Brazos. All are HiTek Coated and work great

So those are most likely very hard then. It may help prevent leading from being overhard.

 

[Demi-human]

Just soft or are you coating bullets at full standard hardness.

Please define, “Standard Hardness”.

So those are most likely very hard then. It may help prevent leading from being overhard.

No. 12 to 14 Brinell hardness is just right for most handgun cartridges. 12 being “soft”. Pure lead is very soft and works well with rimfire. I don’t think it would hurt, but it is very soft for centerfire cartridges.

.38 Spcl is a lower pressure cartridge that could use a softer bullet with aplomb. 9mm not so much, but size trumps all.

Even the hardest bullet, if too small, will lead.

 

[AJC1]

Please define, “Standard Hardness”.



No. 12 to 14 Brinell hardness is just right for most handgun cartridges. 12 being “soft”. Pure lead is very soft and works well with rimfire. I don’t think it would hurt, but it is very soft for centerfire cartridges.

.38 Spcl is a lower pressure cartridge that could use a softer bullet with aplomb. 9mm not so much, but size trumps all.

Even the hardest bullet, if too small, will lead.

Most production bullets are very hard from what I have been seeing like 18 for shipping and handling reasons. I know that some companies produce bullets that are better hardness optimized which I find is gooder. I have been doing research on old vs new technologies and 12bhn was considered hard when Elmer Keith was doing his thing. In my posts I generally list the number like bhn 6.7 so there is zero confusion. By most standards other than black powder that would be soft.
Figuring out who shoots their own vs production bullets is not always easy. Experience with the process and that experience is what I seek.

 

[DocRock]

As soft as.possible. As hard as necessary. That's the Golden Rule for lead until you get into the black arts of high velocity rifle with lead.

Powder coating should still allow obturation with the alloy BHN you were using. While a coating, it isn't strong enough to inhibit obturation much, so you should still be fine. At pistol velocities, with good bullet fit and soft enough alloy, I've never understood the alleged benefit of powder coating except as a way to use slightly undersize or overly hard bullets.

 

[forrest r]

Everyone looks at things differently. IMHO:

PC is nothing more than a seal.

One of the most misunderstood area's of cast bullets is the use of the bhn formulas. People use a formula and come up with a # and think that's what the bullet's bhn has to be for that load. The reality is that's the "MAX" bhn for that load. There's nothing that say's you can't use a 8bhn alloy when the formula say 16bhn.

Myself I like to use 8/9bhn alloy to cast & pc bullets for revolver, pistol or rifle loads up to 25,000 psi. The 8/9bhn alloy is hard enough to avoid seating issues when reloading along with bullet deformation for improper neck case expansion/neck tension. That alloy tends to hold up to the stresses of rotational torque while obturation takes place in a wide range of different bullets shapes/design's.

For the same reasons above I use 11/12bhn alloys for loads up to 35,000psi. And 14bhn alloys for loads above 2

 

[Demi-human]

Figuring out who shoots their own vs production bullets is not always easy.

It can be easier.

AJC1: Do you cast your own?

Me: No. I had to draw the line somewhere.
I use MBC coated bullets, because they are softer than SNS’s and Acme’s and nearly every other lubed bare lead bullet. Speer is known for making soft lead, but their bullets come pre-mangled, even before shipping.(Do they drop the bullets off the machines into the boxes from the second story?)

Not casting my own has no bearing on my knowledge of bullet size, construction, hardness and it’s use.
Size still rules.
Bullets can be made of tungsten and coated and work, provided they are the right size. (In this case, small enough to get down the bore, since it will not engrave, nor obturate like lead.)

I've never understood the alleged benefit of powder coating except as a way to use slightly undersize or overly hard bullets.

Yup! And in firearms with rough bores, tight cones or worn barrels.

Also it’s good for reduced lead contact when handloading, color coding different loads and matching the days shooting jacket.

Like B.A. says, “I pity the fool that ain’t got matchin’ bullets and sneaks!”

 

[Texas10mm]

Please define, “Standard Hardness”.



No. 12 to 14 Brinell hardness is just right for most handgun cartridges. 12 being “soft”. Pure lead is very soft and works well with rimfire. I don’t think it would hurt, but it is very soft for centerfire cartridges.

.38 Spcl is a lower pressure cartridge that could use a softer bullet with aplomb. 9mm not so much, but size trumps all.

Even the hardest bullet, if too small, will lead.

12 to 14 BHN is too hard for most handgun cartridges. I cast to an 11 BHN and it works great in everything but a few 327 FM loads.

As an aside. Hi-Tek isn't powder coat. Two different products, two different processes.

 

[AJC1]

Everyone looks at things differently. IMHO:

PC is nothing more than a seal.

One of the most misunderstood area's of cast bullets is the use of the bhn formulas. People use a formula and come up with a # and think that's what the bullet's bhn has to be for that load. The reality is that's the "MAX" bhn for that load. There's nothing that say's you can't use a 8bhn alloy when the formula say 16bhn.

Myself I like to use 8/9bhn alloy to cast & pc bullets for revolver, pistol or rifle loads up to 25,000 psi. The 8/9bhn alloy is hard enough to avoid seating issues when reloading along with bullet deformation for improper neck case expansion/neck tension. That alloy tends to hold up to the stresses of rotational torque while obturation takes place in a wide range of different bullets shapes/design's.

For the same reasons above I use 11/12bhn alloys for loads up to 35,000psi. And 14bhn alloys for loads above 2

These numbers are almost identical to the information I was reading and trying to test for myself. I understand why companies do what they do, but I also understand that is not truly optimal. I do a ton of reading and I am slowly doing the testing/experiments myself for verification/validation.

 

[AJC1]

12 to 14 BHN is too hard for most handgun cartridges. I cast to an 11 BHN and it works great in everything but a few 327 FM loads.

As an aside. Hi-Tek isn't powder coat. Two different products, two different processes.

From a sales and copyright position I can see wanting to make a clear line between products. Is there any testing or data that shows performance differences between the two. I feel like they do exactly the same thing for the purposes of shooting. I decided against hi-tech from watching fortunecookie45lc do both processes. PC seemed easier, less complicated, and produced a good result in one coat. Honestly I initially intended to PC and his video showed me another product was available.

 

[Texas10mm]

Powder coat is going to be a much harder coating on the bullet.

Hi-Tech is quicker...for me. A couple of minutes to swirl...at the most and two bake cycles.

I coat while I'm casting or loading. It doesn't take that much time. I never had any success with just dumping powder coated bullets and baking them. I've always had to stand them up and that's a big time sink.

 

[Demi-human]

12 to 14 BHN is too hard for most handgun cartridges. I cast to an 11 BHN and it works great in everything but a few 327 FM loads.

Yet this business thrives. And will even make custom orders if the one point of hardness really is a sticking point.
https://www.missouribullet.com/

I have still found success with the other two companies, even at 16-18 bhn. I use MBC because they are great people.
I stand that size is primary. ACJ1 wanted less bullet deformation, harder bullets or more careful handling are the two options I see, as the coating is not harder than the bullet and that is what is deforming.

The only reason I know not to go too soft is blowing through a bullet and causing an obstruction from high pressure for the bullet.

Yes, Hi-Tek is the superior coating in every way.
And I love when someone else will do it for me.

 

[Eddietruett]

Yet this business thrives. And will even make custom orders if the one point of hardness really is a sticking point.
https://www.missouribullet.com/

I have still found success with the other two companies, even at 16-18 bhn. I use MBC because they are great people.
I stand that size is primary. ACJ1 wanted less bullet deformation, harder bullets or more careful handling are the two options I see, as the coating is not harder than the bullet and that is what is deforming.


Yes, Hi-Tek is the superior coating in every way.
And I love when someone else will do it for me.

I agree with everything you said 100% and I don't think you could have worded it better.
I have found that size is the biggest cause of leading. GT Bullets makes one of the best uncoated lead bullets out there. Quality is great and consistent as the day is long. They are soft. I've heard several different numbers. They advertise by the make up instead of hardness. I would think they are around 10-12 but that's just a guess. My point here is I've shot some of their 185gr lead hollow point in a .357 jacked up to 1300+fps out of a 8 3/8" and 7" Model 686 Revolvers. The shorter barrel would start showing noticeable leading after 10-12 rounds but didn't seem to effect accuracy until about round 25. The 8 3/8" Barrel would not show hardly any leading after 25 rounds. I never shot it enough to see when accuracy was effected. My hands couldn't take that much recoil at one sitting. I never slugged the barrels, but there is no other logical reason other than diameter of one matched the bullets better than the other. Another thing that backs the size theory up is the 7" barrel always shot jacket bullets the best and the 8 3/8" always shot cast best with identical loads. I've never shot powder coated bullets because I'm like @Demi-human. I want someone to do it for me and the cost difference from lead to coated lead is a bargain.