Electronic Counter for Watching Your Primer Supply

[GW Staar]

Finally a primer sensor for the rest of us! A few weeks ago I read a thread about a Round Counter that Dillon used to make, that the O.P. was looking for. He got several replies about how people count their reloading in other ways, including mine. But my wheels were turning, because there are other ways a reloader like me could really use a counter, not for counting rounds, which of course you can do if you want, but for me counting primers and counting powder would be really useful.

The following picture view of my RCBS Pro 2000 shows an APS primer strip about to be joined to the nearly spent one. The picture doesn’t show populated strips, just the perpetual procedure that must occur every 25 primers. You forget…you load brass without primers…heaven forbid! Tube loaders put off a similar procedure for another 75 primers, but if you forget to load another tube, you also can load rounds without primers.


So, I dreamed up a concept of using an electronic “down-counter” that for me has two presets. One at 15, which is the # of cases I prime on the first primer strip of the day, before I need to splice the second strip to it…and another preset of 25, which after 25 strokes of the press would beep at me to change all additional strips. So this counter would count 15 press strokes, beep, I would add strip #2, it would automatically reset to 25, then count 25 press strokes, beep, and I would add strip #3, repeating perpetually until I turn it off.

I knew a fairly simple microcontroller controlled circuit, with programmed presets, a reset button, a source of counter signal, and an on/off switch would do it, but I can’t program microcontroller chips. I went looking for such info on electronic forums.

I found Rick Harris of WWW.MoonTaj.com, who specializes in custom circuits and who also programs microcontrollers. He made me just what I envisioned for $30. (Next Picture!)


Put in a box (he supplied) and mounted to my press, and using a microswitch for input and an old cell phone power supply, the following picture is a video that shows the result of this first prototype kit and yes, you can actually buy the prototype! Click the next picture to play the video.

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Now I don't have to think about running out of primers. Just open a box of 1000 CCI strip primers and go...for a long as I want...focusing on load quality.

You can check out this newly available kit at MoonTaj.Com Obviously, if you can figure out how to mount a microswitch,or any other kind of switch: proximity, reed, magnetic to your Hornady, Dillon or Lee, , you can convert this to any press, and can count rounds loaded, keep track of primer tube level, powder measure level, what ever. Kevin Harris can provide an inexpensive solution, either in kit form, or whatever you want. Possibilities are pretty endless! Eventually I want to put together a tool with two back-lit LCD readouts and a couple more buttons to set it up to watch my powder level too.

Dillon and RCBS users who have tube primer systems have simple mechanical primer sensors available to them already, and Dillon has a mechanical powder level sensor, but as we develop the tool I want for my press, I can eventually accomplish everything those Dillon tools can do for their users, and more on one tool, and not have to add mechanical contraptions to primer tubes or powder measures.

If anybody's interested in how I made it work on my press read the larger account at http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=42&t=324316

 

[Walkalong]

I do it the easy way. I don't count em.

Very cool by the way. AC

 

[GW Staar]

I do it the easy way. I don't count em.

Very cool by the way. AC

Counting them isn't the point. The point is being reminded to add them before they run out. I've loaded a few without primers...it ain't pretty.

I haven't run out of powder yet....reeaall close, though. I figure its a matter of time. I'd rather have a contraption like this, so I don't even have to think about it...just trust in the beep! Then I can focus on more important things, like churning out ammo. Nothing wrong with that is there?

With the APS system, this counter really makes it fast and smooth when using CCI APS primers. No pauses to amount to anything...except to fill the powder hopper.

 

[Walkalong]

The point is being reminded to add them before they run out.

Agh, I see. I set each bullet and pre-primed case by hand, so problem.

 

[billybob44]

Great idea GW...

Great idea you have going there, GW. Running out of primers can be a real pain.
I load on an old Dillon RL550. I do not have the electronic primer warning system on my Dillon. What I do have is a coat hanger that feeds down the primer tube, on top of the primers. It is cut (calibrated) to bottom out at the bend when it has 5 primers left in the magazine. This works for me-when at the bend of the coat hanger, I refill the tube.

 

[GW Staar]

Agh, I see. I set each bullet and pre-primed case by hand, so problem.

Yes, your deviant use of your progressive is well known, after all! You may have to try the next version, that polices the powder hopper level as well.

 

[GW Staar]

Great idea you have going there, GW. Running out of primers can be a real pain.
I load on an old Dillon RL550. I do not have the electronic primer warning system on my Dillon. What I do have is a coat hanger that feeds down the primer tube, on top of the primers. It is cut (calibrated) to bottom out at the bend when it has 5 primers left in the magazine. This works for me-when at the bend of the coat hanger, I refill the tube.

Yes Dillon's primer and powder sensors work fine....and obviously your hanger works for you. In using the APS system, I have none of those options, so the electronic counter is a God-send for me.

I would think that the next incarnation of this tool, which will keep track of powder in the hopper combined with the primer counting feature will be more advantageous than having to set mechanical devises on primer tube and powder measure. We'll see.

 

[gwalchmai]

On my 550 the difference in "feel" makes it very obvious when there's not a primer in station one. No need for a primer sensor on that one.

 

[rfwobbly]

You could do it simpler than that with a tiny cylindrical magnet in the place of the last primer and a tiny reed switch. In the case of vertical aluminum primer tubes, the magnet could be epoxied to a brass wire "handle" so that the magnet could be extracted for refill.

 

[ReloaderFred]

There was a powder sensor on the old Ammo Load motor driven machine that would stop the machine when it got low on powder, so it's been done in the past. As far as I know, they still make the Ammo Load, but it's changed hands so many times I don't have a clue who might own them now.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[billybob44]

On my 550 the difference in "feel" makes it very obvious when there's not a primer in station one. No need for a primer sensor on that one.

You're right gw. And then when the handle goes too far forward, with no primer felt, you pull out the already sized case and place a single primer in the tool cup, all the while trying to keep from dropping it on the floor, to be lost forever with the assortment of used primers that may be down there, and under the bench.
That's where some way of knowing just before you run out comes in handy.
For me, if I am going to load more than 100 rounds at the current press settings I like to know BEFORE my primer arm swings in empty.

 

[gwalchmai]

On my 550 the difference in "feel" makes it very obvious when there's not a primer in station one. No need for a primer sensor on that one.

You're right gw. And then when the handle goes too far forward, with no primer felt, you pull out the already sized case and place a single primer in the tool cup, all the while trying to keep from dropping it on the floor, to be lost forever with the assortment of used primers that may be down there, and under the bench.
That's where some way of knowing just before you run out comes in handy.

I guess you could do it that way, but it seems a little awkward to me. I just pull the unprimed case out of station 1 and toss it in with the other unsized cases, then finish loading the other three primed cases. Then I refill the primer tube, and go on. It also is a good stopping point to check weights and replenish brass and bullets.

For me, if I am going to load more than 100 rounds at the current press settings I like to know BEFORE my primer arm swings in empty.

I don't see a significant advantage of a beeper telling you it's empty rather than just feeling that it's empty or seeing that the follower is bottomed out. It's still empty and you can tell either way.

Also, using my advanced ciphering skills, I have been able to ascertain a peculiar one-to-one relationship between primers used and rounds loaded. It's uncanny.

 

[Tilos]

I usually size, flare and (pre) prime 5 cases before I connect the powder measure at the beginning of a reloading session.

When I feel no resistance at primer seating part, I replace the unprimed case with a primed case, refill/replace the primer tube, and continue on.
Sorry to admit to old school tube fed primers, but I prefer the tubes as they hold 100+ primers.

RCBS doe sell a tube feed conversion for the 2000 but it's quite pricey ($133)

 

[GW Staar]

I usually size, flare and (pre) prime 5 cases before I connect the powder measure at the beginning of a reloading session.

When I feel no resistance at primer seating part, I replace the unprimed case with a primed case, refill/replace the primer tube, and continue on.
Sorry to admit to old school tube fed primers, but I prefer the tubes as they hold 100+ primers.

RCBS doe sell a tube feed conversion for the 2000 but it's quite pricey ($133)

Go back and watch the video one more time! Now think about the stash I have of preloaded CCI strips. Several 1000 primer boxes (40 strips each) of each size primer I use. Plus that many boxes of other brand (mostly Winchester) that I have "preloaded" into strips with my strip loader during my favorite TV shows. Then notice the split second it takes to add a strip to the press every time my new sensor "beeps.".........and you want me to add a tube feed conversion? Why would I want to go back to the dark ages? RCBS doesn't sell many of those for a reason. APS is faster, more conveniant, and safer! I filled and loaded from tubes for 38 years....that was enough.

 

[Tilos]

GW Starr:

I know, I know, I said I was old school...along with Hornady and others.

I'm happy that those electronics are working for you, but remember I'm a dinosaur and will be extinct before I could even think about changing.

PS: My press is green too, so could you send me all those pesky tubes you fought with for 38 years?

 

[gwalchmai]

OK, I just watched the video. That's a slick hack, I agree. Don't take this the wrong way, but couldn't you just watch the strip and splice in a new one when you see it get low? Maybe I'm missing something.

 

[evan price]

The Lee pro-1000 already has one- the primers just start jamming, which means you need to add more.

Oh, yeah the CLEAR PLASTIC WINDOW that lets you see your primers might also be a great assistance...

Seriously, reloading is a serious job for people who can pay attention to simple things like loading supplies. Sure, you screw up sometimes. It's not like you can't tell when a finished round is missing a primer, versus running out of powder.

What's next, an electronic gadget to tell you that you need to turn on your electronic gadget?

When we rely on machines to do the simple stuff for us (like knowing you are running out of supplies) you wind up training yourself to not think for yourself.

 

[GW Staar]

OK, I just watched the video. That's a slick hack, I agree. Don't take this the wrong way, but couldn't you just watch the strip and splice in a new one when you see it get low? Maybe I'm missing something.

I'm curious to know what machine you are using?

With the Pro 2000, on each pull of the handle you place a case, then check another case for powder just before you fit a bullet on top, then making sure the bullet feeds straight, you pull the handle, hopefully not mashing the bullet balancing fingers in the process. Yes.... and watch the primer strip....and the powder...and you're getting into a rhythm faster and faster, but don't forget that primer strip and bullet powder level, and hopper powder level, and don't get the fingers caught. The name of the game in progressives is juggling, and the less you juggle the less you'll make mistakes.

I'm not try to set speed records, just make good reliable ammo 4 times faster than I used to with 5 cases at a time instead of one. I'm not a super man, and am certainly less super than most of you. My motto is to simplify where I can and this is one tool that does just that! Now I don't have to worry about missing a primer strip....at least until my ears go. When they make a better bullet feeder TWO more things will be simplified. Won't have to worry about feeding fingers to the press, nor feeding skewed bullets to a case.

 

[gwalchmai]

I'm curious to know what machine you are using?

I use a Dillon 550. I can do 400-500 rounds an hour without breaking a sweat, but I usually do about 400, and allow time for a break every 100 to check supplies, verify my powder drop, swill down a beer, etc.

Really, once I learned the rhythm I can manage all those multiple things easily, but of course I don't talk while loading. That can cause problems.

 

[GW Staar]

Seriously, reloading is a serious job for people who can pay attention to simple things like loading supplies. Sure, you screw up sometimes. It's not like you can't tell when a finished round is missing a primer, versus running out of powder.

Same question Evan! What press are you loading with? I admit when I made the video I was looking at the primer strip every pull of the handle. Afterall it was a demo of the counter and no primers were loading. But when you are loading on a progressive, you don't tend to spend all your time watching the primer strips. There's a lot more going on. I have more senses than my eyes. Hearing the primer strip is ready to splice to, means my eyes can watch other things. You've got a door bell, would you prefer to watch out the window for visitors?

What's next, an electronic gadget to tell you that you need to turn on your electronic gadget? Hmmm, you mean like the defrost buzzer on your microwave? Or is that electronic gadget threatening to you also?

When we rely on machines to do the simple stuff for us (like knowing you are running out of supplies) you wind up training yourself to not think for yourself.
Right, I didn't use any brain cell at all thinking up this tool?

There's nothing simple about pulling 25 rounds when I forgot to change strips when I was learning the system....perfect people wouldn't do that, of course.

 

[evan price]

Look, Staar, I'm an industrial controls engineer myself, I went to the trouble of making a sensor setup for powder and primers using Omron fiber optic sensor emitter/recievers and amp units driving an LED light & piezo chirper through an ice-cube relay to indicate something was low. Did this by drilling a tiny hole in the Lee primer chute for the fiber optics to see through, and by gluing the sensor pair to a Lee translucent powder hopper. It worked. Then, you realize, why bother? Just pay attention to what you are doing and it will all work out.

I don't feel threatened by technology. I control technology. It's just that at some point you have to be able to run things yourself and not rely on a machine to tell you when to take a leak.

 

[GW Staar]

Look, Staar, I'm an industrial controls engineer myself, I went to the trouble of making a sensor setup for powder and primers using Omron fiber optic sensor emitter/recievers and amp units driving an LED light & piezo chirper through an ice-cube relay to indicate something was low. Did this by drilling a tiny hole in the Lee primer chute for the fiber optics to see through, and by gluing the sensor pair to a Lee translucent powder hopper. It worked. Then, you realize, why bother? Just pay attention to what you are doing and it will all work out.

I don't feel threatened by technology. I control technology. It's just that at some point you have to be able to run things yourself and not rely on a machine to tell you when to take a leak.

When (if) you cool down why not share your idea (most likely a very good one) with us mere mortals. Let us make our own choice whether it's worth bothering with or not.

And one more thing, when somebody else has an idea, and shares it with everybody, it doesn't give you some sanctimonious right to tear it down, because you are an engineer. You could have and should have added to the thread by sharing your ideas and knowledge.

You said,"I control technology." Not in my reloading room you don't. Let somebody else have credit for having some intelligence. I already explained why I personally needed this tool...I'm not trying to force it on you or anybody else. Sorry, for not measuring up, I've spent my life only engineering structures.

You said, "It's just that at some point you have to be able to run things yourself and not rely on a machine to tell you when to take a leak." While I actually agree to a point, we're all adults, and we have the right to decide where we draw the line, technologically, in our own situations, its not your call. If you used my press, I'm betting you'd have come up a similar solution to a real need. We have more senses than eyes, what the hell is wrong with letting ears help ease the load. That's all this tool does.

BTW, I looked for a source to buy the tiny Omron fiber optic sensor emitter/recievers, but was unsuccessful in finding them in one-zies and two-zies.

 

[ScratchnDent]

I think it's a good idea, and appears well executed.

In my mind, it's no different than running a powder check die.

 

[MCMXI]

RCBS users who have tube primer systems have simple mechanical primer sensors available to them already

Counting them isn't the point. The point is being reminded to add them before they run out.

I've been using RCBS primer tubes for almost 20 years and see no reason to change. When I bought a PiggyBack II conversion kit in the early '90s, it included two short tapered rods that drop down inside the large and small primer tubes. Once the last primer has been used, the rod drops through the shellholder preventing it from turning. This system has worked for me for tens of thousands of rounds. I've never dumped powder into a case without a primer.

As for what you're doing, are you having fun, or making money, or both? If so, then good for you.

 

[GW Staar]

As for what you're doing, are you having fun, or making money, or both? If so, then good for you.

No Mon just fun. In my experience you don't mix hobbies with business.

The guy who makes the boards might make a little if he gets an order or two. All I did is review his product, as a part of my personal project. I do appreciate him for helping me turning an idea into a simple but real, working tool, and it cost me very little. I wonder how much a big company would charge for a one off custom board complete with microcontroller programming? Exactly! If he asks for "insider" info as he calls it (his hobby isn't guns or reloading), I'll be happy to give him free advice whenever he asks. That's called appreciation, not a partnership.