Deaf Smith
Member
Dunno.. depends on what really happens. Might need nothing. Might need everything.
Deaf
Emergency Ammo - How much is REALISTICALLY needed?
- Thread starter elano
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Dunno.. depends on what really happens. Might need nothing. Might need everything.
Deaf
Arizona_Mike
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What I would do is look how long people were on their own in recent real-world weather incidents. The troops started arriving on Day 6 post landfall for Katrina, with mass relief efforts starting on day 7. In the LA riots you had the National Guard arriving on the 4th day and restoring order (for the most part) on day 5. The police had pretty much abandoned law enforcement and left the residents on their own (as they did for the 3-4 days of the Crown Heights Riot).
Figure on a week.
Bugging out may be necessary in a natural disaster. For most WtRoL situations that are purely political, bugging in is probably a lot more wise. I get very frustrated with folks who are so eager to bug out (usually the same type who fantasise about being able to use their kit and test their theories).
Mike
Figure on a week.
Bugging out may be necessary in a natural disaster. For most WtRoL situations that are purely political, bugging in is probably a lot more wise. I get very frustrated with folks who are so eager to bug out (usually the same type who fantasise about being able to use their kit and test their theories).
Mike
armoredman
Member
1000 rounds? Hmm, given casting bullets at 124 grain each,(lead at $1 a pound), 5 gr Unique each, and primers...comes out to $60 or so, roughly. Primers are the big expense, of course. Oh, plus about $1 to run the lead pot long enough to cast them up.
AStone
Member
I've got 9 in the 9,
and 3 in the .30.
Good enough for now.
and 3 in the .30.
Good enough for now.
Always a fun thread, but I am not aware of a single instance in the last 150 years where citizens needed multiple magazines to protect themselves after a political, social or natural disaster. Maybe the 'Battle of Blair Mountain', but I am not sure that counts. But I have never heard of civilians in the USA getting in big drawn-out gun-battles with gangsters/bikers/Somali pirates.
I have lived downtown in a big city for big chunks of my life, and the Reginald Denny scenario is the one I have worried about. But if he had been armed with virtually any handgun, he would have been left alone, in my estimation. The main thing is to have a gun when you need it, and that means carrying or having one in your car.
I have lived downtown in a big city for big chunks of my life, and the Reginald Denny scenario is the one I have worried about. But if he had been armed with virtually any handgun, he would have been left alone, in my estimation. The main thing is to have a gun when you need it, and that means carrying or having one in your car.
Hey - then not to worry! There is no economic downturn at present; things are better than they have been in 8 years, and getting better. So don't stockpile your ammo in fear, but in anticipation of a fun day at the range!
armoredman
Member
Athens, Tennessee?
1911 guy
Member
If i remember right, the citizens in Athens used arms from the National Guard Armory to forcibly ensure a fair election. Armories must have been much less secure then than they are now.
For those that don't know, Athens was the site of citizens standing up for free elections in the face of obvious fraud. Also called the McMinn County War, you can look it up. Interesting story.
For those that don't know, Athens was the site of citizens standing up for free elections in the face of obvious fraud. Also called the McMinn County War, you can look it up. Interesting story.
Ammo for emergencies? Depends what type of emergency.
1) Natural disaster.
2) Urban riot.
3) Viral pandemic.
4) Nuclear fallout.
5) EMP (solar or man made).
1 and 2 could be handled by a few mags worth against looters or rapists for the duration of the week or two til help or order arrives.
Number 3, especially if it has a high mortality rate, could get ugly and last considerably longer. But most people would be holed up in their homes. I doubt a thief will take the chance of contracting a superbug just for your TV.
Number 4, you will have massive civilian displacement and over crowding in uncontaminated areas. Likely the government security will not allow you to pass into safe zones with weapons.
And for number 5, forget about modern life, we just went back 150 years. Most estimates I've read say it would take a year or more to rebuild the basic power grid. During that time the supply of food and medicine would be very disrupted and people will get desperate, or opportunistic. You're basically on your own til then.
1) Natural disaster.
2) Urban riot.
3) Viral pandemic.
4) Nuclear fallout.
5) EMP (solar or man made).
1 and 2 could be handled by a few mags worth against looters or rapists for the duration of the week or two til help or order arrives.
Number 3, especially if it has a high mortality rate, could get ugly and last considerably longer. But most people would be holed up in their homes. I doubt a thief will take the chance of contracting a superbug just for your TV.
Number 4, you will have massive civilian displacement and over crowding in uncontaminated areas. Likely the government security will not allow you to pass into safe zones with weapons.
And for number 5, forget about modern life, we just went back 150 years. Most estimates I've read say it would take a year or more to rebuild the basic power grid. During that time the supply of food and medicine would be very disrupted and people will get desperate, or opportunistic. You're basically on your own til then.
bannockburn
Member
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- 26,299
I don't know how much ammo I might need but I keep an old video camera bag filled with 2 boxes of 9mm. (100 rounds), .223 ammo in 5 20 round AR15 mags (100 rounds), 8 100 round boxes of CCI MiniMag .22LR, and 20 rounds of 12 gauge 00 Buck.
Just in case.
Just in case.
SHTF ammo?
No more than what you can and would carry on your person times two, IMO.
But really...probably the magazines most people keep loaded...or should keep loaded...for their carry guns(s) and home defense gun(s). A pistol and a rifle each with two spare magazines would probably be more than enough for almost all situations short of TEOTWAWKI
No more than what you can and would carry on your person times two, IMO.
But really...probably the magazines most people keep loaded...or should keep loaded...for their carry guns(s) and home defense gun(s). A pistol and a rifle each with two spare magazines would probably be more than enough for almost all situations short of TEOTWAWKI
TimSr
Member
How many shots were actually fired by civilians in the last few natural disasters?
As much as you can afford without neglecting to budget for good training and the many other aspects of dealing with an emergency. I imagine it's quite unusual for anyone, post gunfight, (which would usually qualify as an emergency), to say, "dang it, sure wish I'd had less ammo during that".
Of course, on the other hand, I don't think anybody cared even the tiniest bit about the ammo, magazines, or guns they had in boxes back home. Few people will carry as much ammo on their person ready to go as they can afford
45_auto
Member
Maybe ask some of these guys how many rounds they used:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py4AMYebHGI&list=RDPy4AMYebHGI#t=37
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py4AMYebHGI&list=RDPy4AMYebHGI#t=37
Panic buying? Again, the historic facts: in my stores, the first panic ate up most of the military cartridges, and they went fast. BUT - all the other kinds of ammo most operators on gun forums call Fudd ammo was still there in quantity - .30-30, .30-06, 12 ga, etc etc.
No, the first panic wasn't all about ammo drying up across the shelf. Not at all.
Second panic, it reached a little deeper. NONETHELESS, you could still buy ammo. What occurred was the more civilian catridge oriented gun owners finally got the memo, but as usual, overreacted and are still in panic mode to some degree. Only now do we see .22LR showing up on shelves - because most of those who think they need 1,000's of rounds of it are now asking, "What was I thinking?" They didn't shut down the ammo factories, and for the most part, found out they were their own worst enemy. They kept seeing themselves in line on Ammo Tuesday at the local BoxMart competing for the same limited supply.
The military shooters adjusted to the new reality and either paid the price for their favorite or started reloading. I haven't seen AR sales diminishing at all with tight supplies. Apparently you don't need to hoard back 1,000's of rounds of AR or AK ammo. There seems to be enough to go around - those gun owners aren't inclined to wait in line stamping their feet in the snow for another two boxes. I believe they discovered the internet and fixed their supply problem.
So much for panic buying - I think that you don't narrow you cartridge choices as a good measure, you expand them to have something that shoots the most common non-military rounds which will be around. If my neighbor hands me a box of .30-30 I can shoot it - and vice versa. While armies may standardize on single cartridges the people often can't, or it even becomes illegal to possess, which they are in many other countries.
I suspect that when the type approved LSAT comes out, the military will retain the rights to it's proprietary dimensions and it won't be available for public sale. The TDP for the M4 is just the first step.
And in the case of complete war - just how is that supposed to happen? If anything it will be entirely internal, not an external aggressor. You will have to use what you can get - most won't be chasing the "enemy" across hundreds of miles to engage them. Goes to Katrina again - most of those with disposable cash and a vehicle got out of town and didn't stop until they felt safe. A lot of them stayed right there. It was, in fact, the most recent refugee situation we've had since Sherman's March across Georgia. They may have clogged up a few roads or run out of gas, for the most part, no a shot fired.
You want real preparedness, you need dry food stores, a way to keep 2,000 gallons of water on hand, a method of purification, and good neighbors. The average American uses about 6 gallons of water a day per person - worry about that, not ammo. If the grid is down - it's happened here three times in ten years for at least 4 days at a time - water is more important. Propane comes in next to grill the food you can't keep frozen. A method of heating it for cooking and at least a warm wash cloth bath so you aren't completely distasteful when you get to work - which will likely still be there.
Let's not forget that most corporations aren't going to tolerate the disruption of business well. Not making money is NOT an option - they usually do whatever it takes. Including bribes or coercion, most of which isn't normally needed in America, but definitely part of the day to day operations overseas. If a popular uprising is going to impact the bottom line and managers are going to be handed negative profitability - expect consequences, and your fellow citizens are going to line up and salute the new flag to keep a paycheck coming in.
I worry less about ISIS or the Russians or whoever compared to those in this country who I know will sell us out for their next meal.
No, the first panic wasn't all about ammo drying up across the shelf. Not at all.
Second panic, it reached a little deeper. NONETHELESS, you could still buy ammo. What occurred was the more civilian catridge oriented gun owners finally got the memo, but as usual, overreacted and are still in panic mode to some degree. Only now do we see .22LR showing up on shelves - because most of those who think they need 1,000's of rounds of it are now asking, "What was I thinking?" They didn't shut down the ammo factories, and for the most part, found out they were their own worst enemy. They kept seeing themselves in line on Ammo Tuesday at the local BoxMart competing for the same limited supply.
The military shooters adjusted to the new reality and either paid the price for their favorite or started reloading. I haven't seen AR sales diminishing at all with tight supplies. Apparently you don't need to hoard back 1,000's of rounds of AR or AK ammo. There seems to be enough to go around - those gun owners aren't inclined to wait in line stamping their feet in the snow for another two boxes. I believe they discovered the internet and fixed their supply problem.
So much for panic buying - I think that you don't narrow you cartridge choices as a good measure, you expand them to have something that shoots the most common non-military rounds which will be around. If my neighbor hands me a box of .30-30 I can shoot it - and vice versa. While armies may standardize on single cartridges the people often can't, or it even becomes illegal to possess, which they are in many other countries.
I suspect that when the type approved LSAT comes out, the military will retain the rights to it's proprietary dimensions and it won't be available for public sale. The TDP for the M4 is just the first step.
And in the case of complete war - just how is that supposed to happen? If anything it will be entirely internal, not an external aggressor. You will have to use what you can get - most won't be chasing the "enemy" across hundreds of miles to engage them. Goes to Katrina again - most of those with disposable cash and a vehicle got out of town and didn't stop until they felt safe. A lot of them stayed right there. It was, in fact, the most recent refugee situation we've had since Sherman's March across Georgia. They may have clogged up a few roads or run out of gas, for the most part, no a shot fired.
You want real preparedness, you need dry food stores, a way to keep 2,000 gallons of water on hand, a method of purification, and good neighbors. The average American uses about 6 gallons of water a day per person - worry about that, not ammo. If the grid is down - it's happened here three times in ten years for at least 4 days at a time - water is more important. Propane comes in next to grill the food you can't keep frozen. A method of heating it for cooking and at least a warm wash cloth bath so you aren't completely distasteful when you get to work - which will likely still be there.
Let's not forget that most corporations aren't going to tolerate the disruption of business well. Not making money is NOT an option - they usually do whatever it takes. Including bribes or coercion, most of which isn't normally needed in America, but definitely part of the day to day operations overseas. If a popular uprising is going to impact the bottom line and managers are going to be handed negative profitability - expect consequences, and your fellow citizens are going to line up and salute the new flag to keep a paycheck coming in.
I worry less about ISIS or the Russians or whoever compared to those in this country who I know will sell us out for their next meal.
What you can carry if you had the flu
You may have enough to start a small war but I can guarantee you don't have enough to finish one.
Guns / ammo are only a small part of the puzzle. If you feel you need more than a reload for all the magazines you can carry on your person then you might want to rethink your strategy.
Shelter, water, food and money will go a lot further in most cases.
Now for a panic or extended ( think years ) ammo drought; obey your local fire code and check to make sure the floor isn't sagging or cracking.
You may have enough to start a small war but I can guarantee you don't have enough to finish one.
Guns / ammo are only a small part of the puzzle. If you feel you need more than a reload for all the magazines you can carry on your person then you might want to rethink your strategy.
Shelter, water, food and money will go a lot further in most cases.
Now for a panic or extended ( think years ) ammo drought; obey your local fire code and check to make sure the floor isn't sagging or cracking.
Speedo66
Member
The second video where the store owners are on the roof:
The news commentators say "They (the Korean store owners) all seem to be armed on the roof. Not AK47's, just regular rifles. There doesn't seem to be any looting, at least not in this area".
Shocking!
They later talk of 100 other businesses that have been.
At one point my brother and I had a retail business in NYC that was burglarized 2 weekends in a row. We spent a few weekend nights after that having a sleepover with Mr. Mossberg. Fortunately, the burglars didn't appear.
Another night I get a call from the NYPD at 3 in the morning that the place had had the front window broken, and they thought someone might still be inside. I get there, and the cops tell me to proceed first since I knew the layout of the 3000 sq. ft. store. I was also working as a LEO with a state agency in NYC and had arrest powers throughout the state. I ID myself and pull out my gun. One of the cops tells me I can't carry the gun. I tell him then he should go first, that seemed to alleviate any problem with my carrying.
The news commentators say "They (the Korean store owners) all seem to be armed on the roof. Not AK47's, just regular rifles. There doesn't seem to be any looting, at least not in this area".
Shocking!
They later talk of 100 other businesses that have been.
At one point my brother and I had a retail business in NYC that was burglarized 2 weekends in a row. We spent a few weekend nights after that having a sleepover with Mr. Mossberg. Fortunately, the burglars didn't appear.
Another night I get a call from the NYPD at 3 in the morning that the place had had the front window broken, and they thought someone might still be inside. I get there, and the cops tell me to proceed first since I knew the layout of the 3000 sq. ft. store. I was also working as a LEO with a state agency in NYC and had arrest powers throughout the state. I ID myself and pull out my gun. One of the cops tells me I can't carry the gun. I tell him then he should go first, that seemed to alleviate any problem with my carrying.
BSA1
member
Yep. Take a look at Post #83;
Especially #5,.Most Americans and many THR members are not aware of the danger from EMP's.
FEMA recommends two weeks worth of supplies. The more rural the area longer for government help to arrive.
You mean number of reported shots? Why would I report firing shots when the government was non-existent?
22-rimfire
Member
I suspect this is true. But in an emergency you aren't going to practice. Yes to the 200 rounds in a day, but that is not an emergency and I seldom feel most here will ever need to shoot 200 rounds in a single week because of need unless you are a professional hunter culling out game animals such as in Texas.
When ammo supplies became is short supply, I stopped the majority of my casual shooting. Honestly, after a couple months, I didn't even miss it. Substituted other activities.
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It is a perishable skill. To cease all practice/training, or even just to cease or severely restrict all live fire, would leave a person less prepared for emergency use
I will be impressed if anyone can cite to an instance in which a civilian in America had to use more than one standard 30-round magazine's worth of ammo from a rifle due to any kind of riot or "civil unrest" or temporary emergency. Even if you think the lights going out for a few days is going to turn substantially everyone into a murderous, plunder-seeking looter who will use violence without compunction, the mere sight of someone with an AR or similar scary-looking gun is going to cause them to search for softer targets.
And if you're in a situation where you're in sustained firefights with hundreds of rounds of ammo being exchanged, you're gonna be dead pretty soon anyway with no medical services around.
And if you're in a situation where you're in sustained firefights with hundreds of rounds of ammo being exchanged, you're gonna be dead pretty soon anyway with no medical services around.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Of course. But we're talking about emergencies. Not situations lasting months or years. You can take a few weeks off while your area recovers from a hurricane without worrying that you won't have the skills to fight off roving gangs of murderers.
If this is an emergency that's going to persist for a year or more...wow. That's a biggie. Getting out to the range to practice is probably WAAAAAAY down on the list of survival priorities at that point.
Well, that came about as a result of:
Now for a panic or extended ( think years ) ammo drought; obey your local fire code and check to make sure the floor isn't sagging or cracking.
I figured I could take us a little more towards "ammo to practice with in case of prices/shortage" instead of full on SHTF
Old Dog
Member
Much talk here centers on a belief that any "emergencies" will be short term in duration, the government will quickly restore order and the power grid will be maintained.
EMP was mentioned. A threat very few seem aware of, yet a real possibility, particularly with the growing numbers of rogue nations constantly testing their weapons capabilities.
I doubt I'm alone in thinking that within the next few years, we will be entering uncharted waters with respect to how our country is governed and the threats we face.
While the most likely disaster in my region is a strong earthquake (and the scientists say 10.0 is possible here) or a volcano erupting, I don't think there's anything crazy about preparing for the worst possible scenario with the worst possible outcome.
Seems like a lot of y'all really place a lot of trust in your local, state and federal governments.
EMP was mentioned. A threat very few seem aware of, yet a real possibility, particularly with the growing numbers of rogue nations constantly testing their weapons capabilities.
I doubt I'm alone in thinking that within the next few years, we will be entering uncharted waters with respect to how our country is governed and the threats we face.
While the most likely disaster in my region is a strong earthquake (and the scientists say 10.0 is possible here) or a volcano erupting, I don't think there's anything crazy about preparing for the worst possible scenario with the worst possible outcome.
Seems like a lot of y'all really place a lot of trust in your local, state and federal governments.
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