Is it just me, or are people nowadays so fixated on the published energy and velocity numbers of rifle ammunition? If I were to look at the numbers of the 30-30, I would be afraid to use it, but seeing what it did to a black bear at 60 yards, would change my mind quickly. Are those numbers misleading?
energy numbers mean nothing
- Thread starter smartshot
- Start date
- Status
I have not ever hunted black bear, or anything larger than a coyote with a center fire rifle, Indiana hunting regulations have only in recent years relaxed on this subject. But I am sure I have read numerous accounts of the 30-30 being capable enough for all but the biggest and more dangerous North American game. Compare numbers of this class, and I think things will seem more on a level field. There are many calibers that are more powerful, and have more range, but inside the 30-30s useful range, it is quite capable.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
By and large, I pay no attention to numbers for energy. Anything around a .250-3000 or bigger is gonna wreck Bambi. The only real argument is about distance, and that's mostly a function of sights and skill.
There are the natural arguments about .223 and 7.62x39, but the reality is that bullet design and shot placement are what matter.
As usual.
There are the natural arguments about .223 and 7.62x39, but the reality is that bullet design and shot placement are what matter.
As usual.
Foot pounds of energy have never killed anything. Only broken body parts. Now that doesn't mean that more foot pounds may not lead to more broken body parts, it may, or may not.
I want a bullet that expands as large as possible and completely penetrates what I'm shooting at. Nothing else really matters. Assuming proper placement
I want a bullet that expands as large as possible and completely penetrates what I'm shooting at. Nothing else really matters. Assuming proper placement
d2wing
Member
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2008
- Messages
- 6,431
It means something. Not everything. It's an indicator of relative energy in which more is better but there is more to it like bullet contruction, frontal area, range and type game.
Keep in mind that many large animals were killed or made nearly extinct before modern high velocity rounds with smokeless powder were invented.
Keep in mind that many large animals were killed or made nearly extinct before modern high velocity rounds with smokeless powder were invented.
It's an indicator of relative energy in which more is better
Up to a point for each animal (which you do address). It does get to the point where you have to consider bullet and shot placement much more carefully if you have too much gun for what you're hunting. The real downside is running a caliber you can't comfortably shoot (physically or financially) enough. Better a .243 with no flinch than a .300 RUM and being terrified of the shot. For some reason I don't understand, I was watching Sarah Palin's show this weekend and her father handed her a rifle to shoot a caribou...the very first thing she did was ask if it kicked. If it's not comfortable to shoot on the range, let alone in the field, it's a poor choice.
But I do take a .300 Win Mag deer hunting. Generally a reduced velocity handload for just deer. Much more gun than necessary, but the worst thing that will happen is that I screw up a shot and waste a bunch of meat...when the same screwed up shot with a much lighter rifle might lead to the animal suffering longer or not being recovered.
Up to a point for each animal (which you do address). It does get to the point where you have to consider bullet and shot placement much more carefully if you have too much gun for what you're hunting. The real downside is running a caliber you can't comfortably shoot (physically or financially) enough. Better a .243 with no flinch than a .300 RUM and being terrified of the shot. For some reason I don't understand, I was watching Sarah Palin's show this weekend and her father handed her a rifle to shoot a caribou...the very first thing she did was ask if it kicked. If it's not comfortable to shoot on the range, let alone in the field, it's a poor choice.
But I do take a .300 Win Mag deer hunting. Generally a reduced velocity handload for just deer. Much more gun than necessary, but the worst thing that will happen is that I screw up a shot and waste a bunch of meat...when the same screwed up shot with a much lighter rifle might lead to the animal suffering longer or not being recovered.
My understanding is that when a bullet has a lot of energy and doesn't penetrate very deeply, then it's a fair bet that something is going to suffer a lot of damage. Be it the target, the bullet, or both. For instance, I heard secondhand of a shot being taken on a deer with a .243 varmint load. It pretty much shattered the bullet on impact and did horrendous but shallow damage to the animal. Fortunately, another hunter was there with the proper ammunition (and a larger caliber) and put the animal out of its misery.
Offfhand
Member.
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2009
- Messages
- 2,442
The energy of a cartridge, either at muzzle or down-range, is easily calculated and has long provided a useful guide for comparing cartridge performance. There have been numerous attempts to substitute other measurements of comparison, such as Taylor's "KO" effect, but all suffer from unavoidable subjective input such as bullet construction, shooting distance and even marksmanship. It can be effectively debated that the standard energy formula is velocity biased, but even so, until a better system is developed our old energy ft lb system will remain the industry standard and a pretty reliable means of assaying cartridge performance.
d2wing
Member
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2008
- Messages
- 6,431
The measurement of energy is a formula from physics. It is an accurate measurement of the power a bullet has but not it's effectiveness. There is no do-all way to measure that because of the many other factors. In pistols and muzzleloaders velocity is more limited so to increase energy you must increase mass to get more energy. Conversely if you make a bullet too small in caliber it's energy is not transferred to the target. Also more energy makes more recoil and so on. Clear as mud yet?
KodiakBeer
member
No, it's not even that. Pick a "low end" game cartridge like the .243 and with a properly designed bullet (not a varmint round) it will penetrate a deer through and through. Much of the "energy" is expended in the dirt beyond the animal.
So, the question is not how much energy a particular cartridge contains, but how much energy is required to enter and exit the targeted species. Any energy in excess of that is wasted energy since it's expended on a tree, rock or whatever it hits after passing through the animal.
I thought the type of bullet has more to do with how the energy is used. Like a hollow point or ballistic tip will expend more energy and do more damage on impact then a full metal jacket that is more likely to stay together and carry its energy straight through.
Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk
Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk
RhinoDefense
Member
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2010
- Messages
- 883
Kinetic energy is an attempt to quantify killing effectiveness and is the new marketing gimmick of the last 15-20 years. With so many cartridges available to the hunters, the companies needed a new angle. Promoting a kinetic energy factor is one of them.
Many hunters are very passionate about their high energy cartridges yet these same hunters will never shoot an animal past 100y (90% of big game is killed inside 100y) and most don't have the shooting skills to shoot much beyond that. Their 3 inches less drop at 400y means nothing when their high velocity bullet shatters on an elk shoulder at 75 yards.
A faster bullet will flatten trajectory which is ideal for shooting at unknown distances or estimated ranges, but at real world big game hunting distances of 100y or less it won't make a bit of difference. Most hunters in the field today have more performance than warranted.
Many hunters are very passionate about their high energy cartridges yet these same hunters will never shoot an animal past 100y (90% of big game is killed inside 100y) and most don't have the shooting skills to shoot much beyond that. Their 3 inches less drop at 400y means nothing when their high velocity bullet shatters on an elk shoulder at 75 yards.
A faster bullet will flatten trajectory which is ideal for shooting at unknown distances or estimated ranges, but at real world big game hunting distances of 100y or less it won't make a bit of difference. Most hunters in the field today have more performance than warranted.
KodiakBeer
member
You can handload your own low-velocity rounds if you think so, but a slug from any standard game cartridge will exit the animal.
KodiakBeer
member
?? Even my black powder rifle exits a deer.
Unless you're prone to taking end to end shots on game (and ruining much of the meat), any standard game cartridge is going to exit the animal. If it doesn't, then you should probably read the box it came in because you're hunting with a varmint round.
Cosmoline
Member
Much of it depends on perspective. The .30-30 looks low compared with the .30'06, but very high compared with the .357 magnum. Energy is a factor in the amount of penetration you'll get and the resulting tissue damage. Beyond that I'm not sure it matters that much.
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2003
- Messages
- 13,341
When we are discussing Bambi energy is kind of a mute point. When we are discussing Tembo or M'Bogo it tends to have more validity. However as we increase FPE it is pretty much null and void unless we increase diameter and weight to go along with it. Also known as Momentum.
IE
A .338 cross country smacksalot putting out a 270 gr bullet at 3,500 FPS producing a muzzle energy north of 5,000 Ftlbs does NOT have near the effect on a big heavy boned critter as does a 470 NE putting out a 500 gr .474 caliber slug also producing something north of 5,000 Ftlbs.
Either with controlled expansion bullets will sail through a deer giving about equal effect. A good 117 gr expanding .25-06 in the same spot on Bambi will most likely give a far more dramatic and quick kill.
IE
A .338 cross country smacksalot putting out a 270 gr bullet at 3,500 FPS producing a muzzle energy north of 5,000 Ftlbs does NOT have near the effect on a big heavy boned critter as does a 470 NE putting out a 500 gr .474 caliber slug also producing something north of 5,000 Ftlbs.
Either with controlled expansion bullets will sail through a deer giving about equal effect. A good 117 gr expanding .25-06 in the same spot on Bambi will most likely give a far more dramatic and quick kill.
Last edited:
lizziedog1
Member
A .22-250 has more energy then a .45-70 "old school" load. Now, which would you rather have in hand if you were facing a charging bear? If energy is the only criteria, then you would pick the .22-250. If having a chance to live to see another day, then you would pick the .45-70.
It is? Compare the penetration of an 'old school" 45-70 to most other rounds and that theory is invalid.
It is? Compare the penetration of an 'old school" 45-70 to most other rounds and that theory is invalid.
wheelgunslinger
Member
People have begun to experience a marked lack of experience and elders showing them the way.
In lieu of watching Dad or Grandad or Uncle whatshisname use various calibers and platforms, people who want to explore hunting or talk about it now have to try and start with data and then buy the right stuff.
I see this with all of my hobbies like archery/bowhunting, backpacking, and shooting. People try to spend away their inexperience, or like here, research it away by choosing a superior caliber.
Nothing beats experience.
But nowadays, when people are in doubt, they don't go to their peer group or family members because most often they can't. So, they consult the Google oracle and look at charts to see what is best on paper.
Theoretically, by the standards now used, my recurve bow doesn't deliver enough KE to kill a whitetail deer. Yet, it does. Go figger.
I learned from my dad, and he learned from his.
In lieu of watching Dad or Grandad or Uncle whatshisname use various calibers and platforms, people who want to explore hunting or talk about it now have to try and start with data and then buy the right stuff.
I see this with all of my hobbies like archery/bowhunting, backpacking, and shooting. People try to spend away their inexperience, or like here, research it away by choosing a superior caliber.
Nothing beats experience.
But nowadays, when people are in doubt, they don't go to their peer group or family members because most often they can't. So, they consult the Google oracle and look at charts to see what is best on paper.
Theoretically, by the standards now used, my recurve bow doesn't deliver enough KE to kill a whitetail deer. Yet, it does. Go figger.
I learned from my dad, and he learned from his.
KodiakBeer
member
Exactly. You're not shooting against an armored vehicle and imparting all your energy upon impact. Instead, you're shooting through an animal and imparting most of the energy into whatever finally terminates the slugs flight.
What happens inside the animal (and this assumes you're using an appropriate cartridge for the animal being hunted) is dependent upon bullet design and velocity because only a fraction of the potential energy is being "dumped" inside the animal where it counts.
To put it another way - whatever energy is required to penetrate and exit a particular game animal is far, far smaller than the potential energy of most game cartridges.
99% of North American big game hunting could be easily and appropriately covered with the .308 or something in that class.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked