England's nascent hunting ban may precipitate "civil unrest"

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Tall Man

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http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1411912,00.html

Top police chiefs admit hunt ban won't work

Secret memos reveal growing fear of civil unrest

Mark Townsend, environment correspondent
Sunday February 13, 2005
The Observer

Britain's most senior police officers have raised grave concerns that the imminent hunting ban is unenforcable, will erode morale, and could precipitate large-scale civil unrest, internal documents obtained by The Observer reveal.
Records of meetings and in-house emails show the level of concern and confusion among senior officers on the eve of the ban, which this week prohibits fox hunting in England and Wales after almost 700 years. They show that any attempt to apprehend those who decide to continue hunting next weekend has already been dismissed as impractical.

An internal document circulated to senior members of the Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo) also reveals that forces will give the ban a 'low priority', raising concerns that thousands of people who defy the ban will go unpunished.

'This has not been afforded high priority in the National Policing Plan,' the document says.

Other concerns outlined in material from Devon and Cornwall, and Avon and Somerset, constabularies - two forces with a high number of hunts in their areas - include worries that police forces are fundamentally weakened by officers who sympathise with fox hunting, or are hunters themselves. The documents from the two forces warn that the ban could undermine their 'policing style' and that should police try to enforce the ban, there could be widespread civil unrest and damaging violence. Potentially violent hunts are to be categorised in the same way as football matches, with provision for riot police.

The documents offer the first insight into the fears of police over enforcing legislation which comes into force on Friday. The following day will see most hunts - an anticipated total of 270, attracting 400,000 supporters - breaking the law in a massive show of civil disobedience.

One email from a Devon and Cornwall inspector details how he dreamt the ban would be postponed, before waking up and despairing that in fact foxhunting would be outlawed this Friday.

Tim Bonner, chief spokesman for the Countryside Alliance, said: 'The police have been placed in an impossible situation. From these documents it is quite clear they are seriously concerned about the implications of implementing the ban on their relationships with local communities'.

Yet most concern is reserved for the 'unworkability' of the legislation, which the pro-hunting lobby remains confident will lead to very few, if any, arrests. A recent Acpo memorandum, outlining strategic considerations for police chiefs, reminds that the hunting ban 'confers a power to arrest, not a duty'.

In addition, the latest briefing notes for the Chief Constables' Council, dated 27 January, reminds them that the offence is not 'accorded high priority'. Details of police action at hunt meetings reveal that the offence is regarded as nothing more serious than 'low-level wildlife crimes', which are dealt with by fixed penalties.

The documents also question how the Crown Prosecution Service will be able to prove intent 'if hunts switched to drag hunting and hounds take off after a fox'. The latest advice from Acpo advises that the offence is not a recordable offence, meaning that those convicted do not have a criminal record.

However, The Observer understands that the government has already begun looking at introducing secondary legislation to ensure that those caught do risk a criminal record. Concern has also spread to the judiciary, with at least five magistrates choosing to resign rather than administer the ban.

However, those supporting the introduction of the ban, such as the League Against Cruel Sports, maintain the legislation is simple to enforce. 'The legislation is very clear; if you are chasing a fox with a pack of dogs that is against the law,' said a league spokesman.

In the minutes of meetings held by officers in hunting hotspots such as the West Country, officers from Avon and Somerset admit that they 'are not secure as an organisation... e.g. police officers [are] involved in hunts'.

A guidance note from Acpo to the Chief Constables' Council reveals that civil unrest creates a much greater problem than actually enforcing a hunting ban. It warns that the ban's impact 'may cause greater public disorder, which will have a much higher priority than hunting offences per se '.

Provisions in other Acpo guidance add that riot police and officers trained in 'conflict management' may have to be used if widespread unrest materialises. Avon and Somerset police confirm they have looked at grading hunts in the same way as football matches.

The documents reveal that the Rural Affairs minister, Alun Michael, even tried to cajole groups such as the RSPCA to enforce the law as well as police officers, a move criticised by the pro-hunt fraternity as 'passing the buck', yet described as 'very likely' to happen by a government source.

In Devon and Cornwall, which covers at least 33 hunts, there are only six designated hunt officers to enforce the ban.
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Nice to see some backbone in the little country who once had an empire where the sun never set.

TM
 
My greatgrandmother always said that Prohibition gave rise to a heightened acceptance to crime in the US. It became acceptable, even among those with "middle class" values to break the law by possessing and consuming alcohol, thus eroding support for the government.

My Con Law I professor in grad school said the same thing about the 55 mph national speed limit. I guess we'll see how it works as to critters.

Got to watch those people from Devonshire. They are a tricky lot! :neener: :uhoh:
 
We will all be much safer once we have each been encased in our own personal block of Lucite. ;)

Remember, it's for your safety! :neener:


Yes, laws that prohibit items, customs, and practices long considered acceptable are very difficult to enforce.

Almost impossible if you don't have common sense on your side, and occupy the moral high ground.

You turn enough people into criminals and pretty soon you have no society left.
 
I wonder how many of the blowhards out there will actually be prepared to sacrifice job, house, car, relationship, credit rating, employment prospects just to keep fox hunting.
 
I do not think that England will have "civil unrest" over this.

I do wonder what will be the straw that breaks the camel's back...
 
This will be interesting. A good test on how far down that slippery slope the Brits really are.
 
Do you think that's what will finally do it here? When they take away every deer rifle and duck shottie... When every tree is hugged to death... Will the hunters wonder why the 2A "extremists" are there for them?
 
The more the amount of laws, the less the amount of respect for the police. That's just how the world works.
 
However, those supporting the introduction of the ban, such as the League Against Cruel Sports, maintain the legislation is simple to enforce. 'The legislation is very clear; if you are chasing a fox with a pack of dogs that is against the law,' said a league spokesman.
As they want this so bad - I'd like to see them doing the policing - instead of time being potentially wasted by the cops themselves - who have way more important things to take their time.

I still am at rather a loss as to how this actually made it thru parliament.
 
Yesterday 11:59 PM
I still am at rather a loss as to how this actually made it thru parliament.
the motivation behind it was, "We're gonna do this because we can. Partly for the fox, but mostly because it's a chance to do down the Tory toffs and show them that we are the masters now." A chance to indulge in a bit of old-fashioned class warfare which is un-PC in almost any other aspect of British politics now. Blair threw it to the Parliamentary Labour Party as a reward for not voting down the war, which privately many of them were very unhappy about Britain's participation in.
 
the motivation behind it was, "We're gonna do this because we can. Partly for the fox, but mostly because it's a chance to do down the Tory toffs and show them that we are the masters now." A chance to indulge in a bit of old-fashioned class warfare which is un-PC in almost any other aspect of British politics now. Blair threw it to the Parliamentary Labour Party as a reward for not voting down the war, which privately many of them were very unhappy about Britain's participation in

You know I've heard that from a number of English citizens...the whole "they've been oppressing us for a thousand years!" thing. I'd say the American equivalent is the race pimps preaching to the more ignorant citizens that the white man is their enemy.
 
ROFLMAO!!!

The English rise up in righteous anger over losing Fox Hunts?

Puhhhhleeez! They didn't rise up in anger over the loss of many other more valuable rights so why over this.

If there is civil unrest over this I would suggest that the English have a serious problem with getting their priorities straight.
 
EVIL5LITER,
Right around the corner.

Because they use dogs to chase the animal, I've wondered if coon, rabbit and hog hunters might not be singled out for special attention by some special interest animal advocacy group. At least here we have, in most states, the wildlife resources commissions somewhat on the side of the hunter. Hopefully the employees of those governemental units will see fit to keep supporting the hunt....if they want to stay employed.

It seems to me the animal rights groups put a critical dent in the trapping industry here in the US and that was without legislation aimed at any kind of ban.

S-
 
EVIL5LITER, It's just around the corner

Because they use dogs to chase the animal, I've wonder if coon, rabbit and hog hunters will be singled out for special attention by some special interest animal advocacy group.

We turned the corner long ago. In some states, bear and cougar hunters have already been targeted by animal rights groups in an effort to ban hunting with hounds. These groups like are picking on the hound hunters simply because they are the smallest niche in the hunting community, and it's easier to outlaw some types of hunting rather than attempting to ban it altogether.
They are operating the same way the gun grabbers do who are going after the smaller group of gun owners who own .50 BMG rifles and the slightly bigger group that owns EBRs...............See how it all connects???
 
The police will turn a blind eye, a few people will get beaten up now and then, and the rurals will hunt with dogs.

Civil unrest is only important when it happens in the city or affects the city; eg poll tax riots in 1990 or fuel protests in 2000.
 
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