Enola Gay restored and back together...

Status
Not open for further replies.
I’m not sure why so many threads degrade to the point that moderators feel the need to lock them down. I understand the passions surrounding a subject like the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Arguments can be made for or against the necessity of nukes to bring the war to an end, or the number of lives saved or lost as a result of their use. I’m not going to go there. Instead, in holding to “The Rules Of Conductâ€, I’d like to visit a less contentious aspect of the Enola Gay.

The Enola Gay, the most famous B-29 was only one of the 3970 produced. The B-29 was an aviation first in many aspects and as such, is deserving of a place in history. The largest at that time, the B-29 was also the first to have a pressurized cabin and centralized and computerized defensive fire control. It also had the capacity to carry up to a 20,000-pound bomb load, or the ability to fly 5,830 miles, with a top airspeed of 365 miles per hour and a ceiling of 31,850 ft.

Additionally, the very existence of the B-29 is a source of great pride for me. You see, I have the great joy and frequent frustration of being the primary caregiver for my mother who, as an 18-year-old young woman living in Western NY in ’42, went to work at the Curtis Wright Plant on Military Trail in Buffalo NY. My mom was a genuine “Rosie the Riveter.†She worked on parts for the B-29 like engine cowlings. She can’t be sure, but it is just as likely as not that she worked on some parts of the Enola Gay, or Bockscar the B-29 that dropped the second bomb on Nagasaki.

In the ‘30s Nazi Germany lead by Hitler, started a campaign of aggression, acquisition, and mass murder. When Japan attacked the US December 7 1941, the US was no longer able to remain isolated and found itself fighting a world war again. The B-29 was only one of the many amazing accomplishments that ultimately lead to a victory over Fascism and Imperialism.

Today we have bigger ships, more accurate guns, faster and higher flying planes. We have engineering and manufacturing techniques second to none in the world. But at the onset of WWII, we were barely out of the Horse and Buggy – Blacksmith days, yet we managed to produce enough of the tools necessary for the military to once again preserve liberty for yet another generation. During a span of about 5 years, we built almost 13,000 B-17s, and 2,500 Liberty Ships, not to mention the Battle Ships, Destroyers, Aircraft Carriers and Support Vessels, the 6,000,000 plus M1 carbines, 2,000,000 plus M1 Garands, and the millions of other Firearms, Fighters and other Support Aircraft, etc. etc. and so on.

So the Enola Gay represents so much more than; The Only Aircraft To Ever Bring About An End Of A War.

My two cents worth. :cool:
 
, the dead civilians in Nanking,

Last I heard ( I do not follow this closely ) , the Japanese govement still has not aplogized or admitted that the "Rape of Nanking" ever took place. We all heard about the atrocities commited by the Nazi Physcians in the concentration camps but how many knew about the Japanese army unit that tested chem/bio weapons on civilians and POWs, or the forced use of US POWs as slave labout for economic gain?

It seems to me IMHO that the Japanes have a few things to do regarding the history of that era before they criticize our version of history, or how we display it.

4570Rick is also correct 1) the B-29 is worthy of display for it's sheer technological achievement. 2) if you want ot display the death totals and "human impact" of the nuclear weapons used, then there should be given the estimate of the cost of invasion of Japan. (It could be right next to the exhibit of the Rape of Nanking. There is plenty of photographic evidence :evil: )



I just ing LOVE the concept that there's something intrinsically MORE moral about killing more people in a "traditional" and non radioactive manner than there is in killing them instantly.

I have always found this attitude strange myself.

NukemJim

PS My cybername has nothing to do with nuclear weapons and instead is in reference to my job in Nuclear Medicine or as commonly refered to in the hospital I work in as "nukes"

Do not ask why the spelling differnce, hospitals are weird. Everybody knows of an EKG right? the initials refer to
E lectro Cardio Gram:rolleyes:
 
agricola...

"it should be on display, but together with the human cost of its mission."

Before you go on any more "holier-than-thou" rants again please read about such humanitarian efforts of the Japanese such as the Rape of Nanking and the Bataan Death March. Then review the fanatical resistance of Japanese soldiers on many of the small islands our military forces had the pleasure of visiting on the way to their mainland. But then, many other fine folks have reminded you of these little examples of Japanese...honor... during WWII and you seem to have blown them off.

It is not the American Government and the American Military which were ultimately responsible for the deaths of all of those Japanese citizens. It was the Japanese Government and the Japanese Military which prosecuted a brutal war and convinced it's enemies that it would never surrender or feel remorse for what they did.

I will give you credit for one thing. You definitely can read history books and pick out historical facts and episodes and pose them as evidence of your position. But you can't fathom what was really going on at that time and what our people had to face to protect the rest of the world.

I plan on visiting the Enola Gay someday and saying a not-so-silent prayer for all those Americans, and Brits, and French, and Poles, and all the other Allies who gave their lives to defeat the Axis powers.

Agricola, let's face it. You just ain't got any gravitas in this forum.

Have a nice day.

(Sorry Mods if I was too harsh)
 
My Dad's a "war criminal" too!

He was on Saipan in April '45 when they ran out of incendiaries and grabbed EVERYBODY (from him up to spare Generals) to help hoick 55-gal. drums of gasoline into the bomb bays as a substitute.

Oh, Agricola; read the accounts of what happened in Hong Kong (maybe to relations of people you know) when Nips came through there. I believe there was a bit of Nanking-style "recreation. "
 
My dad commanded an LCT in the Normandy invasion, and he and his boat were on the way to Japan when the war ended.

Thank you Enola Gay.
 
Because of Enola Gay and Bock's Car, my uncles came home alive. Thank you President Truman for your courage to bring Japan into the nuclear age and thanks to all the men and women who made it possible. Victory is sweet - even after over half a century.

Just another reason to go back to the Smithsonian. :)
 
all,

Look, the dropping of that bomb by that plane was one of the defining moments of the war, if not human history. What's the purpose of not including the fact that it killed an awful lot of people in the process?

It is no better than those Japanese textbooks that dont mention the Chinese or Allied POW deaths, indeed it comes from the same twisted logic.
 
agricola,

Have you ever talked face to face with anyone who was due to be in the infantry during the invasion of Japan? If so, what was their feeling about the atomic bombing of Japan?

I have talked with such veterans who had already endured Okinawa, the Phillipines, and the island hopping. To a man their opinion is:"Thank God for Truman and the atomic bomb."

I don't have a problem if they display photos of each and every Japanese killed or injured by the atomic bombs. In color.


It is no better than those Japanese textbooks that dont mention the Chinese or Allied POW deaths, indeed it comes from the same twisted logic.

No, sir, it does not. The "same twisted logic" would prevent not only the inclusion of the Enola Gay in a museum it would prevent its continued existance.

There is not just a difference in degree between the those Japanese textbooks that don't mention the atrocities committed as policy by the Japanese but also distort the causes of the war and a single museum exhibit. Find me a US history textbook that covers the event that does not include casualty figures of the atomic bombings.
 
agricola - I've no objection to including a body count for either plane. It should be viewed in terms of the greater potential for property damage and loss of human life if we had invaded the Japanese mainland. It should be viewed in light of the Japanese plans to kill all the PoWs who were in forced labor in Japan. It should be viewed in light of all our PoWs who were killed and the atrocities against millions of innocent civilians - both Chinese, Filipino, Allied. The Japanese unleased a medieval minded army upon the world. We just put them away.
 
When the Japanese even acknowledge the Rape of Nanking, I'll start working up some concern over the victims of Hiroshima. This may sound callous, but that's war. The Japanese started a war of conquest that was waged more brutally than any conflict since the Middle Ages. (Even the Germans and Russians didn't use each other's POWs for bayonet practice on the East Front.) They reaped the just reward for their aggression, and maybe they won't ever start another one. Those lessons have a lasting effect: why do you think Germany has become so pacifist in the last 50 years?

There are many incidents on both sides that illustrate the brutality of war. There are the bombings of Rotterdam and London, the firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo, the sinking of the Wilhelm Gustloff, the Bataan Death March, and the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, just to name a few. Both sides engaged in the indiscriminate killing of civilians. The atomic bomb, in the long run, saved more lives than it took, because it prevented the Japanese from utterly destroying themselves and their own nation. We would have lost another half million soldiers, they would have lost another two million civilians, and Japan would have been like Carthage ant the end of the Third Punic War: utterly destroyed, and erased from history.

If you only look at the lives lost, the atom bomb by itself was just another event of wanton civilian destruction. That's what bookkeepers call a "cost-only" analysis, and that's what the gun grabber crowd loves to do with shooting statistics. Both parties don't take into account the lives that were saved by employing those weapons.
 
Hey, if they ever get the Yamato pieced together I'd be fine with that.

Agri, we all acknowledge (sp?) the human cost, but as far as I'm concerned: They started it.
 
agricola...

"Look, the dropping of that bomb by that plane was one of the defining moments of the war, if not human history."

This much is true. It was the act that finally and irrevocably brought an end to the bloodiest conflict that the world has ever known.

"What's the purpose of not including the fact that it killed an awful lot of people in the process?"

Those who know history know the results already. Those who don't won't understand for one reason or another.

The purpose of this exhibit is to celebrate a feat of technical achievement and human endeavor which set a standard for it's time. Not to beat our breast, hang our head, and bemoan a relatively small loss of human life (compared to the loss endured over the previous 15 or so years) caused by the rulers of those people who's lives were lost.

"It is no better than those Japanese textbooks that dont mention the Chinese or Allied POW deaths, indeed it comes from the same twisted logic."

This is perhaps the most ridiculous statement you have ever uttered in these confines. I mean, I can't believe that you have the audacity to even think that this is true. It shows how callow and contemptable your thinking is.

There are plenty of American references which discuss, analyze, and acknowledge the loss of life suffered by the Japanese people at both Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

THERE ARE NO COMPARABLE JAPANESE REFERENCES WHICH DISCUSS, ANALYZE, AND ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR WAR CRIMES AT NANKING, BATAAN, AND OTHER LOCATIONS.

We are NOT going to denigrate Col Tibbets and crew by any attempt to appease people such as yourself who want to re-write history.
 
I appreciate the feeling in this thread - however as far as I am aware it is thought that the Japanese were in negotiations to surrender. Unfortunately they were in negotiations with the Russians. Even if this is not true (and I am searching for evidence of this in link form - I read it in a book by a noted academic a year or two ago) then the invasion of mainland Japan was already being planned for by our allies Russia.

http://www.dannen.com/decision/

A lot of info on there about the decision taken to drop the bomb.

I submit the following from the last link on that page

Dr. Leo Szilard, 62, is a Hungarian-born physicist who helped persuade President Roosevelt to launch the A-bomb project and who had a major share in it. In 1945, however, he was a key figure among the scientists opposing use of the bomb. Later he turned to biophysics, and this year was awarded the Einstein medal for "outstanding achievement in natural sciences."
Q Dr. Szilard, what was your attitude in 1945 toward the question of dropping the atomic bomb on Japan?

A I opposed it with all my power, but I'm afraid not as effectively as I should have wished.
Q Would a demonstration have been feasible?

A It is easy to see, at least in retrospect, how an effective demonstration could have been staged. We could have communicated with Japan through regular diplomatic channels - say, through Switzerland - and explained to the Japanese that we didn't want to kill anybody, and therefore proposed that one city - say, Hiroshima - be evacuated. Then one single bomber would come and drop one single bomb.

But again, I don't believe this staging a demonstration was the real issue, and in a sense it is just as immoral to force a sudden ending of a war by threatening violence as by using violence. My point is that violence would not have been necessary if we had been willing to negotiate. After all, Japan was suing for peace.
Q Would a United States Government today, confronted with the same set of choices and approximately the same degree of military intelligence, reach a different decision as to using the first A-bomb?

A I think it depends on the person of the President. Truman did not understand what was involved. You can see that from the language he used. Truman announced the bombing of Hiroshima while he was at sea coming back from Potsdam, and his announcement contained the phrase - I quote from the New York "Times" of August 7, 1945: "We have spent 2 billion dollars on the greatest scientific gamble in history - and won."

To put the atomic bomb in terms of having gambled 2 billion dollars and having "won" offended my sense of proportions, and I concluded at that time that Truman did not understand at all what was involved.
 
Smokeing Hole

Argicola
Be Happy that someone like me wasn't in charge in 1945.
The Japs couldn't have surendered.I would have left a smokeing hole where Japan used to be.
As example to those that would ever attack the U.S.
One of the things that is missed by people that take the position that we should never use the FULL might of the U.S. Military its lack of use,is seen,in the other parts of the world as weakness,and so encourges additional conflict.
By 1946 I would have had enough Atomic bombs to deal with "Uncle Joe"and we wouldn't have had the problems that we had with the U.S.S.R.,and Still have with China.
That's all wishfull thinking,still I'm glad it was us that had the "bomb" not the other way around.
 
Why do you people rise to the bait the trolls like agricola throw out?
Two wonderful things happened as a result of dropping the bomb, the war ended and we won.
And to the agent provocateur agricola a question. Is that handle some sort of Latin reference? If it is then accept this from the bottom of my heart...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
DFBonnett: Now, don't go cussin' out our favorite entertainer here. agricola's viewpoints have lead to hours of discussion, laughter, and bewildered looks toward those far east of here...

agricola: While I see what you're trying to argue, I think that telling people that a warplane carrying a weapon of mass destruction was responsible for people's deaths would be a little REDUNDANT... :rolleyes:

Besides, it's not the plane's fault or the bomb's fault---it's the person pulling the trigger... :cool:
 
Now now DFbonnet. Agricola has been with us for a long time and is no troll. He just takes another view which is welcomed here and healthy.

Regarding the demo bomb, sure we could have demonstrated. But the Japanese still had over 1,000 operational fighters and if we told them date & time for the demo, they'd put up an airfleet to shoot it down. Then we'd lose a bomb and have to drop one anyway. To paraphrase a Filipino prison guard who was asked about warning shots, "Why waste a bomb?" Like gramma taught us, waste not, want not.

Horoscope for Airboss - You da man! Smoking hole in the ground, salt the earth, separate the stones such that no two stand together. You are reincarnated from a Roman Centurion who was present during the razing of Carthage. :)
 
As for the people who would have died in any invasion, well that was moot wasnt it since the Japanese had sent out peace feelers already?

The Japanese military was planning a coup to oust the Emperor when they learned he was going to surrender. It was narrowly avoided. This was AFTER we dropped both nukes. So please, let's forget this crap.
 
Bocks Car, the B-29 that dropped the atomic bomb on Nagasaki, is on display at the Air Force Museum out at Wright-Patterson.
A few years back, I met the pilot and some members of the crew at a Reading,PA airshow. I picked up a picture of the Bock's Car nose, autographed by the pilot. I asked him about riding out the blast wave. He said that the firebombing raids were much worse as far as turbulence.
I can't wait for the new Air and Space Annex to open in December.
 
We going to ignore Dr. Leo Szilard's point of view then?

Um...if a city full of dead folks didn't make a good enough demo for them, WHY ON EARTH do you think that an empty city would?

See rock jock's post above.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top