Enola Gay restored and back together...

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Neville Chamberlain gets a lot of bad press - mostly cos he was wrong but also because populist history, like that around the atomic bomb, is also wrong.

It was a hindsight analogy Sean - someone mentioned the us vs them attitude of 1945 like that justifies the act.

So I will withdraw because I could do without a flame war. Try looking at the evidence for yourselves though. History is never clear cut.

http://www.dannen.com/decision/
 
Lynching

Lynching Blacks equates to killing and enemy that attacked you and will not surender.
I must be missing something perhaps if we all join hands have a moment together and sing Kumbyah I'll understand.
Nope I don't
The japs and the Germans both should wake up each and every morning and thank their lucky stars that I or someone like me wasn't in charge.
They both would have been liveing today on what they feed their POW's and been worked the same way let's see we would have gotten 58 years of labor from both places.
The only way someone can feel what was done by the U.S in WWII is think what the Japs and the Germans did was right is that your position St.John???
 
sean,

many of your facts ignore the almost simultaneous invasion of the USSR into Japanese-held territory which would have had as shocking an impact to the Japanese command as the two A-bombs did (as pointed out, more people were killed in the Tokyo firestorms than during either Hiroshima or Nagasaki). there were clearly peace feelers being put out, feelers that would have become more desperate with the advance of Soviet troops through Manchukuo.

thumper,

I'm sorry, but that point of view, that the human beings of one nation (which are of course all entirely temporal creations) are "worth" more, or less, than those of another is clearly nonsense, unless you can evidence some differences at the genetic level that would give credence to your views.

rest,

I still havent heard one valid reason why the casualties of the bombs shouldnt be presented with the Enola Gay - the fact that the Japanese dont recognize their victims is, to me, far more justification for remembering the Hiroshima and Nagasaki deaths than it is for ignoring them.
 
Black and white there Airboss?

Because all the German civilians declared war - that's fair enough. Why don't we have a holocaust for germans then? Do the Japanese while we are at it.

Holocaust - possibly the most evil act ever. Period.
Japanese treatment of POW's and Manchurians - very very wrong
Firebombing Dresden - wrong
Hiroshima/Nagasaki - debatable and not clear cut - that's all I am arguing.
 
So like Agricola-

Enola Gay is a military memorial in the same way that Hiroshima should be. Pray to God that it never happens again.
 
I'm sorry, but that point of view, that the human beings of one nation (which are of course all entirely temporal creations) are "worth" more, or less, than those of another is clearly nonsense, unless you can evidence some differences at the genetic level that would give credence to your views.

If you cannot develop a distinction between friend and foe, Darwin had some great terms for you...Extinct. Absorbed. Eaten. History.

Appropos of nothing...how's the "Euro" treating you?
 
agricola,

Depends on your point of view. Saved Americans are more important to me than dead Japanese.

The above is an "exact quote" from Thumper's earlier post. He didn't say American lives were more important that Japanes lives! If you are going to criticize someone for a statement they made, you should at least "know" what they actually stated.

Jerry
 
I went to the Smithsonian's Air and Space Museum when i was in school.

The Enola Gay should be displayed and the Japanese casualties of the Atom bombs should be displayed.

If school kids see the pictures of Japanese casualties,.......................... maybe it will never happen again.

Lets hope!!!
 
thumper,

Neville Chamberlain was confronted by what he recognized as a meglomaniac and provided enough time and resources to rearm the RAF, the RN and most of the Army, which even as late as 1938 were equipped in the main with obsolete weapons. He knew, as those of us who read history from books rather than cereal packets know now, that the UK and the Empire were in no shape or spirit for war in 1938. He then prepared the country for war, and the first chance he got once we were ready he took the Austrian on.

Subsequent events were out of his hands (a mix of the incompetence of the standing plan and the genius of Mansteins' overall plan of attack and Guderian's execution of it), but the preparations he made saved those men at Dunkirk, and saved his country at the Battle of Britain. In time and with distance people will come to understand that Chamberlain was the Fabius to Churchill's Scipio - the latter's glorious victory was only possible thanks to the time he had been granted by his predecessor.

Oh, and in 1940 we stood alone against one of the two most evil regimes in history, a regime that was in almost total control of Europe. When the US is in a fight for its life against an opponent of similar size, when US cities are bombed night after night, when US pilots die defending their families homes, then you can make a jibe like that. Until then kindly keep your disrespectful comments to yourself, and most of all dont dress them up in that pseudo-Americanism because you slander the men of the Eagle squadrons who stood with the people of the UK in that time.
 
I'm sure, Ag, that your family members are "worth" more to you than some random individual in the Japan, genetics notwithstanding.

The fact that you can't make that same distinction with regards to your countrymen (vs. others) makes a great point about the socialization and emasculation of Europe.

Again, good luck with it.
 
Peace feelers? Peace feelers? IIRC, wasn't the Japanese ambassador in Washington negotiating for Japan when Pearl Harbor was attacked? Yeah, I'd trust their Peace Feelers.:rolleyes:

We sent our own Peace Feelers, named "Fat Man" and "Little Boy".:D
 
End of the Hunt

Lets see
Agricola and St. John's
I will try to put this very simply
1st My Family
2nd My Friends
3rd Texas
4th USA
If anyone screws with any of these in the order listed I will endevor to see to it that the person/Nation that has brought harm/grief to those listed is place in a position never to be able to harm or cause grief to anyone again.
Now I am not so foolish as to believe I alone can take on the world;that said I can do alone my family I'll have some help from my friends for my friends.
I bet I can start to raise a group here to help with Texas
And I know I can raise a large mass of folks to help with the country.
 
Dr. Szliard's (sp?) feelings not withstanding, the concept that a "demonstration bomb" would have been effective is laughable.

The Japanese had had repeated demonstrations that the United States was more than willing to destroy entire cities. The only difference was that prior to August 6 it had taken several hundred planes to do so.

A "demonstration" a few hundred, or thousand, miles from Japan wouldn't have made any sort of effective impact on the Japanese given their military mindset.

Again, it should be noted that significant elements of the Japanese military resisted surrendering even AFTER the dropping of two atomic bombs.

Slizard never understood the Japanese mentality. Few did understand the Japanese mentality during WW II. Few understood the concept of willingness, even desire, to die for one's Emperor as opposed to going home to family and friends alive.

The only people who had even an inkling of what the Japanese mentality truly was were those who were fighting the Japanese.

Slizard knew about the scientific prospects and capabilities of the bomb.

That does not, however, make him an expert diplomat, or even an expert in its application.

That's like saying that the engineer who designed the tires used on Indy race cars is, in fact, a qualified Indy driver. Nothing could be farther from the truth.



As for Japan's surrender, the Japanese had put out peace feelers, but were NOT engaged in "surrender negotiations" with the Soviets. The Japanese and Soviets were still under the auspices of a non-agression treaty when the United States dropped the first atomic bomb on August 6. The Soviets only entered the war later.

But once again, as agreed to by the allied powers -- the United States, Great Britain, and China (the major combatants in the Pacific), the ONLY acceptable Japanese surrender would be immediate and UNCONDITIONAL.

The "feelers" that Japan put out were hardly unconditional, and as such were unacceptable to the United States or its allies.

Of course, we then have Szliard asking "why did we have to have an unconditional surrender."

Because that's what the Allies demanded. Nothing short of that.

Szliard once again attempts to use his position of authority as a scientist to cast himself in the mold of a diplomat and warrior. Sorry, it simply doesn't work that way.

He could just as well ask "why was it necessary for the United States to respond to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor with a declaration of war? Couldn't we have just taken the lump and ultimately ignored it?"

You are correct in one thing, St. John. There was some aspect of demonstration for the Soviet Union in all of this, but it was primarily about forcing the unconditional surrender of the Japanese.

The terms that we later GAVE to them are unimportant.

The important part was Japanese ACCEPTANCE of the unconditional nature of their surrender.
 
when US pilots die defending their families homes,

Actually, ag, American pilots DID rush to defend your family's home...and died.

Feel free to criticize, partner...but don't disregard history.
 
Where are these assumptions coming from concerning the guarrantee of Japan's surrender "if we had just stepped back and waited them out?" I have yet to see anything that would have convinced me otherwise.

President Truman did what he had to do-period. When the atomic bomb was a fact, and the war still on, Harry S. had absolutely no choice but to employ it. Had he not done so, and proceeded with the planned invasions, I think he would have been nominated as President most likely to be strung up in the Oval office.

Americans and allies paid a terrible price in blood, money and resources so that we could even have this conversation, and I for one am not going to second guess their tactics or motives in this particular fight.

Not so sure the great scientist wasn't speaking from at least a bit of hind sight in some of his statements. And there wasn't an armed Japanese squad within several thousand miles of Los Alamos, so its a bit easier to ponder things when you're not ducking bullets and Kamakazi's on a regular basis.

I'm unsure what the scientist's collective recommendations would have been had the Axis powers been doing better at the time-thank a WWII veteran, as well as the men and women who worked their tails off building the things necessary-we will never know that for certain. Not that it matters.

What does matter is the mindset of America-we have never liked back stabbers, or people who attack from ambush on a Sunday morning on unsuspecting kids.

In my mind, the Enola Gay symbolizes the Americans who had to fight as well as the Americans who had to build the weapons to fight with, not only for our own troops, but for allied forces all over the world.

Sure, the Axis powers paid a very high price for the devastation they started, but you have to answer that price paid by them to the millions who are laying under white crosses and stars of David too.

The only thing I regret is that we did not have the bomb, the airplane, and the means to get it over their cities December 8th. If we had that power at that time, I'm not so sure World War II would even be in the history books, and certainly not as it is written.

It's a whole lot more than something as stupid a politics.
 
"Oh, and in 1940 we stood alone against one of the two most evil regimes in history, a regime that was in almost total control of Europe."

And the main reason for that is because Britain and France failed to deal with the situation in 1933 through 1937 that they had largely created in 1919, Agricola.

Chamberlain's policies didn't buy Britain time, they almost bought Britain subjugation.

Chamberlain complicity, as Chancellor of the Exchequer under Ramsay MacDonald, in blocking military requests for funds to modernize, innovate, and procure new weapons is the main reason why Britain's plight was so desparate in 1940.

Chamberlain was the lap dog for the "peace at any cost" lackeys and deserves absolutely NO credit for anything more than putting your nation in dire risk.

Chamberlain's acquiescence in the face of Fascism is made even more frighteningly clear when you realize how deeply Chamberlain was invested in Leon Blum's ouster from prime minister's spot in France. Blum had the audacity to suggest that France and Britain should oppose the spread of Fascism in Europe and Africa, even to the point of military intervention.

Chamberlain's policies are a legacy to how to mishandle a growing political crisis by ignoring your advisors and your intelligence service, interfering in the affairs of ALLIED nations, and pandering to the popular press instead of the national need.

Why you hold Chamberlain in such high regard is a mystery to me, when all he did for Britain was ensure that Britain would stand alone....
 
Not at all, Ag...not quibbling.

How many would have died in a Japanese homeland invasion...American, and Kiwi and Aussie and Japanese? What's a conservative estimate?

Do you even consider it possible that Bushido could have killed more (on both sides) than the nukes did?

Why NOT celebrate those saved lives?
 
Neville Chamberlain was confronted by what he recognized as a meglomaniac and provided enough time and resources to rearm the RAF, the RN and most of the Army, which even as late as 1938 were equipped in the main with obsolete weapons. He knew, as those of us who read history from books rather than cereal packets know now, that the UK and the Empire were in no shape or spirit for war in 1938. He then prepared the country for war, and the first chance he got once we were ready he took the Austrian on.

Pure counter-factual comedy. Chamberlain's own statements put the lie to that theory, as do his defense budgets. You don't seem to know your own history very well; see his scathing denunciations of Churchill's warnings about the Nazi menace for details. Oops.

"This is the second time in our history that there has come back from Germany to Downing Street peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time"

...Making him either an immense liar and fraud, or a spectacularly gullible fool. Decisions, decisions...

And feelers aren't surrender. We gave Japan a choice - Surrender or Else. They chose "else." Then they surrendered.

Agricola seems to be talking out of both sides of his mouth... whining about how we didn't get in the war soon enough, then whining about how we went about it too well when we did, and of course denying any possiblity that any Brit ever goofed up anything... even the largely deserving whipping-boy Chamberlain, who his own party abandoned. :rolleyes:
 
Chamberlain - vastly misunderstood, unfairly pillioried for sentiments he never expressed. Up until the Czech business he thought Hitler could be placated - from thereon in he made plans for the worst.

Churchill- populist history's golden boy. He was against the tide of public opinion all throughout the 30's with regard to hitler. He was washed up and ready to be ditched by some. He opposed the handing over of India. History vindicated his warnings with regard to Hitler - but many thought he was wrong at the time.

Pacifism was very popular amongst Europeans at the time (and I seem to recall the Americans not wanting to get involved either), nobody wanted a war. Chamberlain wanted to avoid a war with Hitler over the terms of a treaty that he disagreed with too. The German's were duplicitious and kept much back from the UK on rearmaments etc. Hitler was charismatic beyond that of Blair or any other, he pulled the wool over many an eye.

Easy to get it right in hindsight, much like the atomic bomb really, much harder to make the right decision at the right time. Chamberlain's mistake was Munich and after, perhaps there should be a memorial to the genuine meaning of the term ''appeasement''. It has been lost due to populist understanding of the policy of the 1930's towards Hitler.
 
Some of Churchill's wartime radio addresses were actually spoken by an actor who impersonated Churchill very well. Unbeknownst to everyone until much later after his death. None the less, Churchill was exactly what the English needed during that time. He rallied the people, stood for what he believed, and that oh so wonderful picture of him standing with stogie in mouth and Thompson at the ready! And the Libs of today have a fit over Bush landing on that carrier in full flight gear. :rolleyes:
 
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