EO Tech/ Aim point on an M1A? for MBR

[Ithaca37]

A holosight costs $200-250.

An eotech can be had for $350 +/- a few $.

The eotech comes with an anodized aluminum shell to protect it.

Of course the costs to manufacture do not warrant $350 price tag. Just like the same product minus an aluminum shell (holosight) does not warrant a $250 price tag. Firearm accessories are way overpriced, but the low sales volume generally requires this for the companies to stay in business. Manufacturing costs are often quite low, but tooling can be very expensive. If you think eotechs and aimpoints are outrageously overpriced, you should not look at buying any nylon gear.

 

[HGUNHNTR]

How do you come to the conclusion they are overpriced? There are many, many more costs that go into producing an optic other than manufacturing costs. How much would it cost you to make a similar functioning optic?

 

[Z-Michigan]

FWIW, I haven't used my EOTech in months and it's probably going up for auction soon as I've come to prefer conventional telescopic sights myself. I'm also glad that I bought it used instead of at MSRP, though it has worked 100% while I've owned it. See my post #4 to see whether or not I'm an EOTech fanboy. I'll leave it at that.

jlott, many brands make quality low-magnification sights, I do agree with Matt's suggestion there (which, incidentally, I made almost four months ago in post #6). Nothing against the Nikon M-223 which would be among the first I would look at, but I would also look at options from all the other majors, especially Leupold and Bushnell Elite, and even perhaps the common 2-7x scopes which will handle most tasks other than kicking in crackhouse doors. In the 1-4x scopes there are both excellent and poor quality options, and if it's under $150-200 I'd be really skeptical (while you can get a pretty decent 2-7x under $200).

If money permits, I would also look at the low magnification ACOG sights, which are terrific. While they mostly run $850 and up, SWFA has been having some new but discontinued models in the $550 range for several months now.

 

[Z-Michigan]

so (z-mich) the barrel on the loaded is different? what about this?
http://www.cabelas.com/link-12/produ...:referralID=NA

Sorry, I missed this post until just now. That's a fairly cheap Bushnell - I would put it on a plinker but not a shtf gun or even a nice hunting gun. If you want that type, the Vortex SPARC would probably be significantly better, albeit at double the cost.

That type would work on a conventional over-action scope rail on the M1A, but would be a bit odd. It would also work on an ultimak, but ultimak says their rail won't fit on a Loaded model M1A. FWIW, the micro dot sights often don't have a great optical quality, as it's assumed you'll be shooting both eyes open with the sight farther out by your weak hand, rather than trying to see everything through the optic itself. Personally I wouldn't choose one for an M1A.

 

[Ithaca37]

For cheap red dots, the vortex sparc and Primary arms micro dot are both pretty durable and priced in the $100-150 range.

 

[boricua9mm]

In my opinion, putting an Eotech or an Aimpoint on a full sized M1A would be a waste of the potential of the rifle. Putting a magnified optic will allow you to easier see your targets at longer ranges, and that's where you'll find out what your M1A is really capable of. You can't hit what you can't see and with a 1x optic, you probably won't be any more accurate than you are with the irons.

An ACOG really isn't a viable choice for the M14 platform, not unless you've got a SAGE, a VLTOR Modstock, or a Troy chassis. The ACOG will require a specialty mount (which isn't cheap) and the height above the bore will still be pretty darn high. "Chin weld" is the best way to describe it, even with a raised cheek rest.

A traditional scope on a Sadlak, Smith, or Bassett mount would be my choice. Specifically, I prefer a 3-12x scope for the M1A. At 3x, you've got one helluva field of view and less magnification than the golden standard ACOG, making your closer shots manageable. At maximum magnification, you'll have no problem making hits on man-sized targets at 600 yards, provided you can deliver on your part. If you insist on 1x capability, I would go with a 1-4x scope, also placed on a receiver mount.

Be warned, M1As are money pits. Goregeous, sweet money pits. It is EASY to cross into the $2k realm, and crossing into the $3k realm isn't too difficult either.

My eternal work-in-progress:

 

[Z-Michigan]

An ACOG really isn't a viable choice for the M14 platform, not unless you've got a SAGE, a VLTOR Modstock, or a Troy chassis. The ACOG will require a specialty mount (which isn't cheap) and the height above the bore will still be pretty darn high. "Chin weld" is the best way to describe it, even with a raised cheek rest.

While this sounds right for many of the standard ACOG models, there is a "special ring mount" model ACOG, at least in the low-magnification compact ACOG series, that can be mounted very low, basically as low as would have the bell touching the mounting rail. That's what SWFA has had on clearance pricing. You do have to buy a special mount (a ring mount, surprise!) made by Trijicon that runs $80-100 but as long as you have a picatinny rail that's the only special item you need.

Here's an example:
http://swfa.com/Trijicon-2x20-Compact-Acog-Rifle-Scope-P534.aspx

 

[Matt304]

I did some looking around before I posted it, and I selected the Nikon M223 because it doesn't sound like he wants to pay a large amount. I have to admit it looks like a very good deal at around $240.

When it gets down to such low magnification of only 1-4X, you'll be hard pressed for the human eye to be able to detect clarity differences in the sight between that Nikon and something costing a lot more. Nikon uses good glass to begin with, but the exit pupil is so large on such a low power sight like that, that they will all look very clear and bright. It would literally come down to construction differences internally. On a rifle which does not kick with the brute force of a large hunting gun, I would would have no problem feeling safe with it on an M1A myself.

By now I probably just sound cheap in some respects, but I just can't help trying to save people some money when I sense that they want to.

 

[Ithaca37]

For an SHTF rifle as the OP said this was, a magnified optic is very limiting. If he has to defend himself with his rifle, odds are that it won't be at 500m, but at 5-50m. A magnified optic inhibits target acquisition at realistic ranges. If you want magnification, you obtain magnifiers for eotechs and aimpoints.

 

[boricua9mm]

For an SHTF rifle as the OP said this was, a magnified optic is very limiting. If he has to defend himself with his rifle, odds are that it won't be at 500m, but at 5-50m. A magnified optic inhibits target acquisition at realistic ranges. If you want magnification, you obtain magnifiers for eotechs and aimpoints.

We have a lot of "unknowns" in trying to choose an optic for the OP. The Army seems to have gotten by just fine with the 4x ACOGs, even with their decreased speed at shorter ranges. A scope with a bottom end of 2 or 3x will be easier to use at short range than the Army's beloved 4X ACOGs.

How long his shots are will depend on where he lives. If he lives in a densely populated area, a .308 for self defense is going to be a bad idea no matter how you sice it.

A lot will also depend on what the OP considers "SHTF." I wouldn't consider defending your home against a burgular "SHTF. Now, if we're talking about a post-Katrina type situation and the OP lives in a sparsely populated area, magnified optics are going to be very handy.

When we're talking about the M1A, to even think about adding magnifiers to red dot sights is going to require a SAGE or a Troy stock. Then we get into the whole discussion of complexity of use. I know for sure that I don't get along with flip-to-side magnifiers when the pressure is on.

 

[boricua9mm]

While this sounds right for many of the standard ACOG models, there is a "special ring mount" model ACOG, at least in the low-magnification compact ACOG series, that can be mounted very low, basically as low as would have the bell touching the mounting rail. That's what SWFA has had on clearance pricing. You do have to buy a special mount (a ring mount, surprise!) made by Trijicon that runs $80-100 but as long as you have a picatinny rail that's the only special item you need.

Here's an example:
http://swfa.com/Trijicon-2x20-Compac...cope-P534.aspx


Good to know about the special ring mounts, but that optic only has 2 inches of eye relief. You might wind up with some scope kisses with the 7.62x51/.308

 

[Ithaca37]

How long his shots are will depend on where he lives. If he lives in a densely populated area, a .308 for self defense is going to be a bad idea no matter how you sice it.

A lot will also depend on what the OP considers "SHTF." I wouldn't consider defending your home against a burgular "SHTF. Now, if we're talking about a post-Katrina type situation and the OP lives in a sparsely populated area, magnified optics are going to be very handy.

Without turning this into an SHTF thread, I can not think of the **** hitting the fan any more than when someone is in your house with intent to harm you.

As for making long distance shots, it is possible that someone could shoot at you from down the road, but statistically speaking, that is not going to happen. Katrina did not result in 500m engagements with armed hostiles. Most real combat (not masturbatory SHTF fantasy) takes place within 300m for that matter and in urban environments, it is more like 50m or less.

The fact that the OP is interested in unmagnified red dot and holographic sights, suggests that he is looking to increase target acquisition speed, rather than take up long range shooting.

 

[boricua9mm]

Without turning this into an SHTF thread, I can not think of the **** hitting the fan any more than when someone is in your house with intent to harm you.

I've been in post-hurricane situations, over a week without power or running water. In that case, there IS something worse than a one time break-in. It's when the people who live around you decide they want your food and water and are looking for that opportunity each and every day. It's a constant state of hostility, not a one-time occurrence.

As for making long distance shots, it is possible that someone could shoot at you from down the road, but statistically speaking, that is not going to happen. Katrina did not result in 500m engagements with armed hostiles. Most real combat (not masturbatory SHTF fantasy) takes place within 300m for that matter and in urban environments, it is more like 50m or less.

I'm not talking about people shooting you from down the road. I'm talking about the ability to properly identify & neutralize potential threats before they know exactly where you are. If the OP lives in a place where the nearest neighbor is a 1/4 mile away, there's a lot of land that needs to be covered.

The fact that the OP is interested in unmagnified red dot and holographic sights, suggests that he is looking to increase target acquisition speed, rather than take up long range shooting.

Target acquisition speed and full size M1A are practically mutually exclusive terms for the sake of this discussion. If CQB is the intended role (which 5-50m would be), then the 22" M14 is the wrong rifle right out the gate.

 

[natescout]

had an aimpoint on my scout... ended up taking it off.. going back to irons..

 

[Ithaca37]

I'm not talking about people shooting you from down the road. I'm talking about the ability to properly identify & neutralize potential threats before they know exactly where you are. If the OP lives in a place where the nearest neighbor is a 1/4 mile away, there's a lot of land that needs to be covered.

So, when a hurricane hits you shoot your neighbors? I pray you never move near me.

Exactly how many times have you had to use force post hurricane? How many times did you have to neutralize threats at 1/4 mile?

I think we both know the answer to those questions. Shoot people at 1/4 mile (who haven't shot at you no less) and guarantee you will be brought up on murder charges even if it takes a few days.

By the way, this exactly what I was referring to when I said real life and not fantasy. Thanks for proving my point.

 

[HorseSoldier]

For an SHTF rifle as the OP said this was, a magnified optic is very limiting. If he has to defend himself with his rifle, odds are that it won't be at 500m, but at 5-50m. A magnified optic inhibits target acquisition at realistic ranges. If you want magnification, you obtain magnifiers for eotechs and aimpoints.

With my issue ACOG I could hold my own on time and accuracy up against guys running AimPoints or personally owned EOTechs without much trouble in close and could kill anyone on time and hits all day long if you work in some long shots as well (even if they have a magnifier). The x4 or lower mag ACOGs just don't inhibit target acquisition very much at all -- run two eyes open, and just slap the chevron or doughnut or whatever onto the target and make your hits (mileage may vary with TA01s, but it's still not that bad).

 

[Z-Michigan]

Good to know about the special ring mounts, but that optic only has 2 inches of eye relief. You might wind up with some scope kisses with the 7.62x51/.308

I have the 1.5x compact ACOG which is rated at a measly 2.4" of eye relief. It's by far the longest 2.4" I've dealt with. No fringing with my eye about 4" back. Only minor fringing at 5". Not sure how they rated the eye relief so short.

But I digress...

 

[benEzra]

EOTechs are pretty expensive, considering they give you the same thing that a $150 used Bushnell Holosight can give you from eBay. It's outrageous really, over $500 for a little plastic window with a $5 red laser assembly inside.

At Gander Mountain right now, a Bushnell Holosight is $299.99; the Eotech 512 is $409.99, with the extra $110 buying you waterproofing, an impact shell, and (IIRC) ruggedized internals.

http://www.gandermountain.com/modpe...?r=view&i=413255&aID=503N8&cID=FROOGLE_413255

http://www.gandermountain.com/modpe..._A65/1_Tactical_Optic&str=eotech&merchID=4005

The Eotech window is laminated glass (3 layers), not plastic. And how much capital cost is involved in setting up a facility to produce top-grade holographic diffraction gratings? Even if the per-grating production cost is low (and each Eotech uses 2 of them), you are also paying for overhead and R&D.

Same for lasers---not every laser will meet the required durability, temperature tolerance, and efficiency requirements, nor will a circuit board screwed into a cheap case meet the impact tolerance and submergence requirements.

If it were possible to make an actual Eotech clone for $100 without cheaping out on the parts (replacing the glass with plastic, cheaping out in the internals, not worrying about breakage or holding zero when it's dropped optic-first onto concrete), then somebody would be doing it. Instead, all you see in that price range are made-in-China, non-parallax-corrected LED reflex sights with 250 hours or less of battery life, pot-metal bodies, cheap glass, etc.

With red dot optics, just as with traditional scopes, you do get what you pay for.

 

[jlott00]

sorry the OP i made was kinda vague. the reason is i know nothing about scopes/dots. here where i live id be lucky to ever have a clear 700 yard shot, unless i was on "the road". when i say shtf i mean katrina, or "terrorist" attack of some sorts..where rule of law is gone.i have a mini14 so i guess i could put some eotech/aimpoint on it for upclose, and have a med scope on the m1a. i know i cant afford the acog, i think im looking at $500 max

so maybe a scope really would be the best thing for an m1a?, here is the thing tho... how far out are the irons good for?for a person like me, not a pro!
ive not been able to shoot more then 100 yards...yes it sucks.

AND- whats the ranges for a 1-4x scope?
and also something like a 3-9x?

thanks for all the input so far!

 

[Matt304]

At Gander Mountain right now, a Bushnell Holosight is $299.99; the Eotech 512 is $409.99, with the extra $110 buying you waterproofing, an impact shell, and (IIRC) ruggedized internals.

http://www.gandermountain.com/modper...FROOGLE_413255

http://www.gandermountain.com/modper...h&merchID=4005

The Eotech window is laminated glass (3 layers), not plastic. And how much capital cost is involved in setting up a facility to produce top-grade holographic diffraction gratings? Even if the per-grating production cost is low (and each Eotech uses 2 of them), you are also paying for overhead and R&D.

Same for lasers---not every laser will meet the required durability, temperature tolerance, and efficiency requirements, nor will a circuit board screwed into a cheap case meet the impact tolerance and submergence requirements.

If it were possible to make an actual Eotech clone for $100 without cheaping out on the parts (replacing the glass with plastic, cheaping out in the internals, not worrying about breakage or holding zero when it's dropped optic-first onto concrete), then somebody would be doing it. Instead, all you see in that price range are made-in-China, non-parallax-corrected LED reflex sights with 250 hours or less of battery life, pot-metal bodies, cheap glass, etc.

With red dot optics, just as with traditional scopes, you do get what you pay for.

2 days later you come to this thread to post about a sidetracked discussion in the thread that was well past finished and add nothing to help the poster. Clap clap.

Sorry I made any comments in this thread, jlott00. My posting was originally to help you, but too many people are only here to argue over things.

 

[Maj Dad]

I've been re-agonizing over Aimpoints & EO Techs since the NRA Annual Mtg, but I think the scope Matt304 referenced should be considered. I long ago decided to keep my M14NM (early Armscorp recvr, all GI parts) iron-sighted, with standard rear peep & NM front blade for better acquisition, a mild compromise.

I really like that Nikon. I think that is the solution for my CAR and I found it here for $220: http://www.calssportingarmory.com/Nikon_M_223_Rifle_Scope_1_4X_20_Point_Blank_Matte_p/nk8485.htm

 

[boricua9mm]

Exactly how many times have you had to use force post hurricane? How many times did you have to neutralize threats at 1/4 mile?

On three occasions I have had to grab a firearm to potentially protect my own life, two of those situations were post hurricane. Besides, who said anything about shooting people at a 1/4 mile? I said if your NEIGHBORS are that far away, you've got a different scenario than someone living in the city. You don't have the same overpenetration concerns, and you've got more territory that you need to be mindful of. An armed man on your property is shootable, at least in my civilized part of the US.

By the way, this exactly what I was referring to when I said real life and not fantasy. Thanks for proving my point.

I think it is clear to us that you have not been sitting a real hellhole of a situation as a civilian. I'd also guess you're a city slicker who has difficulty grasping the concept of several acres of private land. I'll be the first to tell you that in that dire of a situation, you can't depend on the police to save you and yours.

Now that the OP has clarified that SHTF does not mean "Home Defense," my suggestions and experiences are even more applicable.

The topic should fit the gun. If one has other viable options available to them, shoe-horning a heavy, cumbersome weapon into a role for which it was never intended just isn't smart. He has an M1A and wants to make it SHTF worthy. In that case the optic should fit the rifle.

 

[conhntr]

You can shoot someone for simple tresspass in Florida?

I do agree that I can think of many shtf situations where I would rather engage the threat at 200yards than 5-50.

 

[Steve Marshall]

jlott00, Im 59 with average eyes. I shoot at pie plates at 300 + yards. My last ten round group with Portuguese surplus was 11". I was having a bad day. 8 rounds hit the plate. So I guess we're saying Center of Mass shots and hits at 500 yards. Which, by the way, you'd be hard pressed to distinguish a human target were he patient and not moving.

 

[boricua9mm]

An armed man on your property isn't coming to sell you Girl Scout cookies or to borrow a cup of brown sugar. FL isn't the only state like this. A few years back I was working with a P.I. who was conducting surveillance in Georgia. The nP.I. messed up and was on the subject's property. He got made and was shot in the shoulder with a .22LR. The property owner & shooter was arrested. It was not because he shot the guy. It was because he did not call the police afterwards.