Equipping an army from scratch on the cheap

[cluttonfred]

I know, I've started threads like this before, but it's been a while...

Let's say that some little island or province manages to break away to form a new country. Let's also say that politics (such as an embargo or blockade) or national pride mean that this newly-independent nation can't/won't buy surplus weapons, they must be home-grown.

This is a developing country with modest industrial capacity but no national arsenal or private gunmakers as such. Let's assume that ammunition can be bought or smuggled in. Assume that the first, basic need is some sort of long arm to equip the national militia.

What weapon and what cartridge do you choose to give your citizen-soldiers something to guard the borders and defend the country right now?

Remember, no surplus weapons, we are thinking about a low-tech, cheap solution made new today, though it might be modeled on a historic or modern example.

Cheers,

Matthew

 

[Rembrandt]

That's pretty much what Israel did in the late 1940's.....some were smuggled in others were made from scratch.

 

[DMK]

This is pretty much what the AK is perfect for. These days you'd want 5.45x39. Either buy them from an ex-Warsaw Pact country or build them yourself under license if you have the manufacturing capability. I don't think a country can find a cheaper, as capable, arm out there.

 

[General Geoff]

AK-47. Wouldn't take long to tool up a manufacturing plant to crank em out like Model Ts.

 

[mljdeckard]

It's not like no one has figured out how to make AKs from scratch.

I think that you could find a lot of Mausers and Nagants sold pretty much as scrap.

 

[doc2rn]

^Agreed and since its construction is cheap from sheet metal and plywood cost is low. Then you could copy like everyone else the S&W model 10. The favorite arm of police in lots of 3rd world countries.

 

[Shadow 7D]

The question is what type of army are you trying for. People get hungry, the more trained the more time you have to feed them, the less trained the more you have to recruit..... Insurgent fighting like northern Ireland, bombs, sniper attacks etc, Bosnian war...

Lots fighting with old weapons, and don't forget the ones that the other side provides if you win a battle.

 

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

AKM (this is what the people referring to "AK-47" really mean), 7.62x39

End of thread.

build them yourself under license if you have the manufacturing capability.

The Soviet Union had no such thing as a patent, there never was, and still is not, any "license" needed to manufacture AK's. In fact, most in existence are produced in other countries without any royalties given to the Russians at all. Kalashnikov claims to this day that he never received a profit either, and the only income he has is a state pension. Same thing happened to the guy who invented the video game Tetris.

 

[PTK]

AK, for a rifle. STEN/Sterling/etc. for an SMG.

 

[KW]

What about the roller locked HK's? Stamped sheet metal with no gas system. As long as you were just building them and not paying the "We hate you and you suck" markup they could probably be pretty cheap.

 

[WinchesterAA]

Electricity is pretty easy to generate, and the components aren't too terribly difficult to engineer, and some pretty neat ideas aren't very hard to make happen in an analog sort of way.

Why instantly go for direct warfare when that's yesterday's game?

Presumably, anyone wishing to do you harm probably has enough explosives to simply bomb you out of existence from ranges that make your m21 cry defeat.

because it's easy enough, and the benefit of fighting without being there is worth the extra 10%.

 

[lykoris]

look among the population of your little island / province for somebody resembling this guy.

in my view, the best low cost option

 

[SSN Vet]

I think you'd find that a functional rifle and ammo would be the inexpensive pieces...

A secure and reliable communications network that didn't depend on infrastructure controlled by someone else will rack up some serious cash though.

Paying your soldiers in a currancy that they'll accept will present another challenge.... at least it did for George Washington.

 

[kmcintosh78]

I would also agree with the the AK platform.
However, I would run them in .223 for regular infantry, and .308/7.62 NATO for special ops. The AK is easy to use, operate and takes a beating.
For sidearms, cheap and easy would be Hi Point 40. Again, cheap and easy to use and maintain.

 

[GRIZ22]

Let's also say that politics (such as an embargo or blockade) or national pride mean that this newly-independent nation can't/won't buy surplus weapons, they must be home-grown.


Not surplus weapons but you can buy AKs from China for under $200. The Chinese won't boycott you unless you're Taiwan. It would be a lot cheaper to buy them from China than tooling up to make your own. Buying them cheap can overshadow national pride.

I would run them in .223 for regular infantry, and .308/7.62 NATO for special ops. The AK is easy to use, operate and takes a beating.


Caliber would depend on where you are. Near Africa it should be 7.62x39. Near a NATO country it should be 223/5.56. 7.62x39 and 223 are made a lot of places. I'd stay away from 5.45x39 as the major source of supply would be Russia. 7.62 NATO? Special Ops? If you're a newly developing country you:

1. don't have much use for Special Ops troops.
2. couldn't adequately train them unless you allied yourself with a country with the capacity to do so.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Claymores, simple to use, saves you lots on paying your soldiers, ........

Really, infantry is cheap, armor, or air defense, communications, these are the expensive stuff. Really expensive is an air force as that piper cub with two m1919 aint gonna cut it with a su 27 or f-22,

Something the OP is purposely EXCLUDING is one of two things

Either there is a substantial force (native or otherwise) that allowed this area to spit
Or there is nothing of value

And what happened to the pickups from the battle for independence?

 

[kmcintosh78]

Griz22, not so for the Special Ops.
Residing in Utah, gives me the best access (per states) to retired Special Forces and current employees to Military Contractor Operators.

 

[cluttonfred]

A lot of folks seem to have missed the point here. The idea was to initiate a discussion of the simplest, cheapest possible firearms to equip an army with weapons made in that developing country. I had in mind past inspirations like the Sten and modern ones like the Hi Point carbine.

Yes, in reality there would be other options and yes, there would always be some leftover/captured weapons. The point is that there are situations--whether you're in East Timor or Stalingrad--when homegrown might be a necessary option. The point was not to argue AK vs AKM or the realism of the scenario.

Does anyone have any constructive ideas on the least expensive, least technically sophisticated firearms that could be built yet still give the citizen soldier a fighting chance? Almost 70 years later, can we do any better than a Sten?

 

[GRIZ22]

Griz22, not so for the Special Ops.
Residing in Utah, gives me the best access (per states) to retired Special Forces and current employees to Military Contractor Operators.

It's not only the software (experienced troops) but the hardware (aircraft, watercraft, commo equipment, specialized equipment) to train an effective Spec Ops unit.

 

[kmcintosh78]

Owlnmole. I believe the AK might edge out the Sten. In looking at Caliber alone.
If you are looking at cost savings, yes the Sten, in it's configuration would be cheap and simple to make. But, I believe the AK could be built as a stripped down platform to mimic that of the Sten.

 

[kmcintosh78]

Griz22, Large hardware, you got me there. Small arms?? I bet there is a better arsenal of small arms located in the Salt Lake City Valley, then that of most of the military installations in all of Utah.

Check this out, KSL.com in the classifieds, firearms. There were about 10 50cal rifles for sale, just within the last 3 weeks.

 

[GRIZ22]

I bet there is a better arsenal of small arms located in the Salt Lake City Valley, then that of most of the military installations in all of Utah.


And a lot of other places too!!!!! Been to Dugway and all they have there is a lot of desert.

 

[Nicodemus38]

actually most countrys of that description do one of two things.

1. start producing dope/coke/herion/meth and sending it to america using small time cartels. thus they can join the war on drugs and get free everything from the us.

2. develop fake al quida sects in their country. blow up a few state owned hotels that cost more to staff and maintain then their yearly net profit, adn join the war on terror. get free stuff from the use and nato to some extent.

both scenarios usually involve some kind of money to start their own arms factories up.

 

[SpotlightRanger]

None.

Arming the state is generally a bad idea. This is why the US had a prohibition against standing armies. If the people form a militia than they bring what they have and what ammo they have. An ammo shortage means a short campaign and certainly not a war that goes on forever accomplishing nothing. Lack of maintenance and repair parts mean the same thing. I would absolutely require all housholds to have gun though. Most countries would think twice about invading a country where every citizen was armed and used to freedom. That would be be the ultimate nightmare from an insurgency standpoint.

 

[FiREhAwk]

If you are a small startup military then it only matters what your neighboring militarys are capable of. I agree to a ak type weapon but a smaller better trained and supplied army will beat out a bigger conscript spray and pray army. So a small supply of better quality may be a better option. So it also depends on how educated the populace or soldiers are.