Escalation of force with knife

[brownie0486]

In todays Boston Globe there is a story about a stabbing over the weekend.

Seems our man was walking on the curb when a car pulled up with two occupants who alighted from their vehicle and started an altercation with this fellow.

He pulled a knife and stabbed one of them in the chest multiple times. The perp later died.

Our man with the knife wgo was walking on the curb has been charged with murder.

A lesson to be learned here:

Though there was disparity of force [ 2 0n 1 ], he escalated the situation by pulling a knife and stabbing one of them multiple times in the chest [ thereby becoming the aggressor].

Neither perp from the vehicle produced a weapon and it was only an unarmed fight until the man walking on the curb escalated it to deadly force by producing a knife.

All those on the forums who state in various threads they'll "stick em", etc should take notice that if you are attacked by an unarmed assailant that you stand the chance of being considered the aggressor if you escalte the unarmed assault to armed and create injuries to another.

This was clearly self defense until he stabbed the perp numerous times in the chest, thereby becoming the attacker.

If he had any training he would have used the knife to defend with and not to attack the aggressor and stab numerous times.
Defensive reverse grip techniques would have been suitable as when they reached into his "inner circle" he could have defended with the blade edge to block their punches.

Witnesses would have only been able to tell the arriving officers that the guy kept yelling "please don't hurt me" as he blocked their assault with his arm [knife reversed so they would be contacting the edge of the blade when striking].

A prudent person will remember this in the future if a similiar situation arrise with them.

Brownie

 

[Coltdriver]

If two people come after one person, the concept of "fair fight" is already out the window.

That some pansy politically correct prosecutor decides to punish a citizen for protecting his life is pure Barbara Streisand.

That it occurs regularly in some parts of the country is a comment on that part of the country, not a rule.

What do you expect for Boston?

I always thought it would be amusing to put one of these prosecutors in a position to take an *** whippin or defend themselves with what ever was at hand and see how they would act.

If the system the government set up to protect me fails, then I am under no obligation to be harmed so that the prosecutor can have employment security.

 

[Devonai]

You sure make it sound like you know exactly went down. I think I'll wait until during the trial to make up my mind. If he was outnumbered he had all the justification he needed to draw his weapon.

This went down in Cambridge, not Boston, so he's got even more working against him there.

 

[brownie0486]

Do you think a defensive posture would require multiple stabs to the perps chest?

Thats the one of the main reasons he is under arrest. He became the aggressor and will be hard pressed to deliver any reasoning behind having to stab the perp that many times.

Thats the point [ pun intended ] of the thread here.

You can defend but then you need to be cognizant of the situation should it turn around and they are no longer a threat where you continue to persue the issues thereby becoming the attacker.

There are lessons here for us to remember and thats why I posted the info.

Brownie

 

[Devonai]

The multiple stabs is going to be tough to explain away. Perhaps I'm just rooting too much for this guy. Thank you for posting the story; we'll have to see how it plays out.

 

[ahenry]

Our man with the knife wgo was walking on the curb has been charged with murder.

A lesson to be learned here:

I believe the correct lesson to be learned is to not live in a place where self defense is not allowed.

he escalated the situation by pulling a knife and stabbing one of them multiple times in the chest [ thereby becoming the aggressor].

I disagree. Only in a place like NY or Boston would such be the case. Moreover, he has not actually been determined to be the aggressor. The DA alone has decided he was. And unfortunately for the defender, he lives in a poor place to try and get a understanding jury.

This was clearly self defense until he stabbed the perp numerous times in the chest, thereby becoming the attacker.

Followed by,

He became the aggressor

He absolutely did not become the aggressor. He defended himself with the necessary force and an overaggressive DA is looking to make a point. It remains to be seen if the good people of Boston will allow him to do so.


All comments are based solely on the information provided. I reserve the right to be wrong pending additional information.

 

[brownie0486]

Multiple stab wounds does not make a very good case for defense against another in any jurisdiction.

If he had stabbed him once or twice the right to defend would kick in [and he may still have been charged ].

Can you give me any legal self defense scenario where as a defender with a knife you would have to stab your attacker a dozen times?

To continue to stab over and over does not make a case for self-defense, though it may have started that way, he became the aggressor.

Are multiple stab wounds resulting in death "necessary force"? --------or "excessive force"? Multiple stab wounds would probably indicate to a reasonable person that at least some of the stabbings were "excessive" in nature.

You are judged by 12 of your peers. Put yourself in this scenario and try to explain to us how you had to stab your attacker a dozen times, please, where you had to stab him that many times defensively.

You see, you can start out in the right, but if you lose your cool and stab an attacker that many times you will likely be charged like the DA is doing here in this case.

I don't think many other jurisdictions would be any more lenient on the face of the case. If you stab someone 12 times I would think most people would deem it being aggressive/excessive

If 12 stabs aren't aggressive/excessive what number would become so for you?

Brownie

 

[ahenry]

If 12 stabs aren't aggressive what number would become so for you?

I’m sorry but would you be so kind as to direct me to the location in the above posts where you stated that the person that was killed was stabbed 12 times? I believe the quote from you was “multiple timesâ€, that would be anywhere from 3 to hundreds. Moreover, I can think of an easy defensive situation where multiple (12 or more) stabbings could occur. Suppose your “pocket knife†is a small little pen knife and the guy charges you and knocks you down. While down you start stabbing him until he stops beating you. A knife is (generally) a slow kill, no big surprise if you ended up having to stab the bag guy many times. In fact there are court cases where just such a thing happened and the defendant was exonerated.

 

[brownie0486]

I used a dozen as an example of multiple. If you don't like that number pick another somwhere over 5 as the case will show happened. The final number was not mentioned but I'm sure the coroner will have a report within a week.

See, laypeople will look at it on it's face value. If they were stabbed once or twice they would be done. They think this way about others as well when listening to testimony.

"unreasonable" comes to mind if you are a normal juror unfamiliar with the act of defense with a knife.

And of course someone may have been exonerated with that many stabs to an attacker but the norm would be deemed excessive at that level and suffer guilty verdicts in all probablility.

A small little pen knife would not have caused death as it would not be reaching deep enough. As he died from the stab wounds we will have to take it the knife blade was long enough to reach vital organs and cause enough damage and trauma to effect the end result [death].



Brownie

 

[Don Gwinn]

Folks, while we can all nit-pick the way Brownie made his points in the first post, I think we all know, too, what he meant. He's a teacher who deals with issues of deadly force and legality quite a bit, and he's thinking in terms of the law, not your personal sense of right and wrong. You and I may very well agree that 12 stabs with a knife is not necessarily excessive for a man who is set upon by two attackers, but that's not the point.

The point is, how do you stay out of prison? Brownie is trying to tell us that whether we like it or not, stabbing someone 12 times is not the way to keep yourself out of prison. And he has a point; you're fooling yourself if you believe this can only happen in Boston.

Can you honestly say that you don't think the defender would be better off today if he'd had the training and presence of mind to do what Brownie suggests? Although I have questions about the practicality of doing so, I can't deny that if the assailant had not been killed then the defender couldn't very well have been charged with murder.

 

[ACP]

Yo Brownie!

Are you the same Brownie who teaches the civilian day class at the S&W Academy? Same Brownie who "pointed" me in the chest with the dulled trainer neck knife that you so slickly pulled from under your sweathshirt? Same Brownie of the "Brownie pop" who carries two 3" folders?

He knows what he's talking about, folks, like it or not.

 

[Al Thompson]

Let me see if I have this right as a non-trained knife guy. If the guy with the knife had slashed defensively, he would be in a better position with public opinion? Seems that the stab wounds, while lethel, were not effective.

I do agree with that, more than once I've had to explain to folks that merely getting shot does not equal what hollyweird shows handgun bullets to do. Had a good friend think that the Diallo case in NY was an assassination as she had zero idea how fast a scared man can empty a Glock.

Lots of illiterates in the public that have to be taken into consideration.

 

[brownie0486]

ACP:

That would be me sir

Give me a PM here.

Good to hear from you on the forum.

Brownie

 

[Soap]

Thanks to El Tejon for first teaching me about what he calls "Problem #2". This situation just re-illustrates that point for me. Thanks for posting it Brownie! Its nice to fantasize that this could never ever happen in your state, but one day you might be in court shaking like a leaf while they read the verdict. Take caution everyone!

 

[Navy joe]

Definitely locality dependent. I agree that he should have tried to remain defensive, but sometimes saving yourself requires some offense. Many people have died from getting their head kicked in, it should be easy to argue that under a determined assault from one or more unarmed assailants that the defendant was in fear for his life. With the stabs he achieved the same final result as if he had been able to present a gun and shoot the man twice in the chest. Lethal force should have been authorized. He probably would have quit stabbing if the other guy had given up like on TV.

Problems:

The locality. Anything other than cowering with his head protected by his arms was going to get him in trouble with the DA.

People's bias against knives. It's a primal thing in that people have some really deep rooted fear of knives and on some subterrean level they think that anyone that uses a knife effectively is a sociopath. Further Bias. In my state I can carry pretty much any handgun of less than 20 rd capacity, but I can not carry concealed on or about my person, daggers, dirks stillettos, bowie knives, etc, ad nauseum. A holdover from the drinking and fighting days I suppose, but the legal system needs to recognize that if they are going to recognize the concept of legal lethal force it doesn't matter how it is applied.

What level of training will the state require to not prosecute you? I agree with Brownie in that had this man been better trained he might not have had to kill his attacker. The localities that allow lethal self defense don't require much training, it would be a really poor arguement to say that someone could have not killed if they had more training. I prefer to place the onus for lethal force not being used on the assailant; don't want to get killed by an undertrained person committed to their defense? Don't commit violent felonies against them then.

A good stabbing as far as I'm concerned with the info available. Charged with murder is different than convicted of murder and no self defense is pretty legally.

 

[ahenry]

Brownie,

I used a dozen as an example of multiple. If you don't like that number pick another somwhere over 5 as the case will show happened. The final number was not mentioned but I'm sure the coroner will have a report within a week.

I know you have an inside track to the police report, so I’m sure you are more aware of what the police say happened than the rest of us. Nevertheless, I stand by my statement that pending as yet unknown information, just because a person has been stabbed multiple times does not mean the defender “became the aggressorâ€. As I stated above, it is easy to envision a self-defense situation where many stab wounds would occur. Moreover, there is court precedent for some of these situations as well.

"unreasonable" comes to mind if you are a normal juror unfamiliar with the act of defense with a knife.

Uh, this is what you get expert witnesses for. Helps when you need to educate the “normal jurorâ€.

And of course someone may have been exonerated with that many stabs to an attacker but the norm would be deemed excessive at that level and suffer guilty verdicts in all probablility.

I disagree. What I think is more likely the norm is that most of the time a person stabs somebody “multiple times†the situation was already murder (or attempted or assault or some such charge). In other words, whether the person was stabbed one time or fifty times, the person would still be guilty of murder (or whatever). Since you seem to be trying to prove that an actual self-defense situation (one that you wouldn’t be charged with anything otherwise) suddenly results in a murder charge solely due to the fact that the person was stabbed multiple times, show us some actual instances. This one certainly doesn’t indicate that since there is ample evidence that the survivor escalated the situation even before the knife was introduced into the situation. In fact, if this is the situation I am thinking of, there is every possibility that the man would have been charged with a crime even if he only stabbed the other guy once. So, prove your point with credible facts. I’m happy to admit it if I’m wrong. I’m stubborn but not impossible. Show me credible facts and I’ll agree with you. Show me iffy ones and I’ll hold to my original view.

A small little pen knife would not have caused death as it would not be reaching deep enough. As he died from the stab wounds we will have to take it the knife blade was long enough to reach vital organs and cause enough damage and trauma to effect the end result [death].

Two inches or less is usually a sufficient blade length to cause death. If the dead dude was skinny, even less blade length is required. The heart doesn’t lie that far below the ribs. Puncture the heart and unless critical care is given in a dang big hurry, he ain’t gonna make it. Of course, I don’t actually think this guy had a small little two-handed pen knife, spyderco’s and their like are too common. My point still remains though, death by knife is relatively easy to inflict but instantaneous death by knife is not. Again, since the objective in a self-defense situation is to end the attack, it is easy to conceive of a situation where the true aggressor is stabbed many times. Especially if the person defending themselves is untrained. IOW, no concept of slashing extremities (or if you prefer, “pointingâ€), just flailing about and stabbing away until the threat stops.

 

[ahenry]

Don,

Folks, while we can all nit-pick the way Brownie made his points in the first post, I think we all know, too, what he meant. He's a teacher who deals with issues of deadly force and legality quite a bit, and he's thinking in terms of the law, not your personal sense of right and wrong. You and I may very well agree that 12 stabs with a knife is not necessarily excessive for a man who is set upon by two attackers, but that's not the point.

You can call me by name, I don’t mind. You’re right though, I do know exactly what his point is and I disagree with it. Hence my posts. Look, I have no doubt that if Brownie and I ever faced off with knives, he’d carve me up for breakfast then chop up the pieces for lunch. That doesn’t change the fact that, 1) he is using the actions of a Massachusetts DA as an example of all DA’s. I’m often guilty of doing the same, but in my case I assume all DA’s are like the ones in TX. That doesn’t make such conclusions accurate though. And 2) his perspective is primarily an LEO one. Not that that makes him wrong, only that that makes his view slightly tainted. For instance, the posts of our resident lawyer are constantly full of “problem #2†and the certainty of its occurrence, primarily because his field puts him face to face with it, way out of proportion to its across the board occurrence. It is much the same with Brownie. Everybody views things through their own set of goggles. Sometimes those goggles happen to taint situations slightly inaccurately. In this case, I believe that has occurred.

Can you honestly say that you don't think the defender would be better off today if he'd had the training and presence of mind to do what Brownie suggests?

Nope, and neither can you. Do you know, for instance, if the person charged with murder stabbed the aggressor once and then backed away but was charged again? And then again, and again, and again? This is actually a topic Brownie and I have discussed on the 1911forum. My contention is that working only to stop an attack is great 99% of the time. Lets be honest, if you are set upon by some perp, probably the mere presence of a knife and a solid defensive posture where it looks like you know what you’re doing is going to be enough to end the attack before it starts. However, real life can go from that all the way to the hopped up perp that doesn’t even know he is being slashed/pointed and the only end to the engagement is the death of one of the two of you. It is much the same as using a gun. Disregarding the possibility of some civil consequences, you could probably end 99% or more of all attacks with a bullet in one of the extremities of the perp. Does that mean it is a sound tactic to shoot for the knees? I think you would agree that it is not. Of course, with a contact weapon like a knife there is the additional factor of trying to hurt him without being hurt yourself. All else being equal however, shooting/stabbing to wound is a great way to get a face-to-face conversation with St. Peter.

 

[brownie0486]

Update in todays Boston Herald.

The man walking who had the knife goes to Harvard in Cambridge where this actually ocurred, not Boston as previously stated.

There are two sides to the story.

His was, he was walking on the sidewalk and an argument ensued over a comment about a girl. The Harvard boy was drunk leaving a bar and walking back to his domicile.

The survivors story [ in the car ] is that the Harvard boy started the altercation. They were parked and he walked up and opened the door to the drivers side [now deceased ], and challenged the driver to get out, again over a comment about a girl.

legalhack:
Let me know when yo are going to be in the area of Boston. We can hook up at that time and put you on the path to enlightenment where edged weapons are concerned. More than happy to barter.

It now appears that the Harvard boy could have possibly retreated and did not on the sidewalk. They are still trying to determine who the initial aggressor here was.

The paper reported that there were 5 stab wounds in the chest of the driver who died. One reached the heart and is deemed the cause the death.

They had a picture of the Harvard boy at arraignment yesterday. He looks like baby huey. Tall, stocky and certainly not a 90 lb weakling. They do not describe the physical attributes of the other two but they would have to be giants to be bigger than this guy.

Brownie

 

[Ol' Badger]

Boy, If I was going to kick some dudes butt and he stabbed me once I would want to leave quick like. But Multible times sounds alittle like over kill. that might be what gets his but in the Big House. But hey, he already is good with a shiv right?

 

[Don Gwinn]

Ahenry, sorry if I singled you out, I was addressing three of you.

I just see a certain amount of peril in dismissing these things as "locality dependent." After all:

1. It leads to people saying things like "prosecutors in Massachusetts vs. prosecutors in Texas." I'm sure that on average the prosecutors in Texas are more liberal about use of force and self-defense, but I bet the ten friendliest prosecutors in Massachusetts are less likely to prosecute a case of self-defense than the ten strictest prosecutors in Texas. There's a wide variation within all states. I come from Illinois, where the difference is pretty staggering, but I keep hearing about places like Austin ("Moscow on the Colorado.")

2. Do you travel? If so, this is still a problem.

However, if it turns out he could have retreated and didn't, and that's illegal in Massachusetts, then your original point is well-taken. He'd be prosecuted no matter how many times he stabbed whoever.

 

[Scott Evans]

Not enough information here to make a call, however; I will assume that the intent of the defender (i.e. the guy with the knife) was simply to save his own life.

If I were the attorney ….

First he was attacked, unprovoked, by multiple assailants.

Reasonably, because of the potential bodily harm to be delivered, surprise, posture, number and aggression of the attackers he is in fear of his life. As such deadly force in self-defense is justified.

Without warning, professional training or time to prepare this man is forced, by his assailants , into a desperate, life threatening situation that requires he physically defend his life with what ever is at hand and in any manner available. He did not ask for it … it was forced upon him. Because of the ferocity and determination of the oncoming goons he simply has no choice but to meet the advancing attackers with force sufficient to stop the assault. Make no mistake; time is a factor in his survival. Given a short span multiple attackers are most likely to overtake and over power an individual even if armed. Particularly if such attackers are not daunted by the initial show of, or wounds given by, the defenders weapon. The defenders weapon; a pocket knife, is a poor choice if an immediate stop of an aggressive, determined attacker is your goal, however; it is all that was available. Remember that the initial show of the weapon did not deter the attack … the hoodlums persisted. The initial strike did not stop the attack as they continued to pressed upon the victim. Again and again and near hopeless the victim strikes their advances as he pleads for life with each fearful, retreating blow. Finally one slumps down and relents. In typical bully fashion when left alone to face a determined resistor the remaining attacker flees in fear.

Cumulatively; these factors not only make the use of repeated blows by a small blade reasonable or likely but in this instance they were completely necessary to stop the attack.

One who attacks another must assume the risk that his intended victim may choose to defend himself rather then be severely injured or die. The attacker’s injuries and subsequent death were the result of his own actions and persistence to do harm to another.

Finally; the notion that an untrained civilian be required to assume a reverse grip posture and parry blows by multiple attackers with the knife edge in hopes that they may stop is silly. If the simple show or initial blow of the weapon dose not deter the advance then the attackers themselves have determined that their own physical impairment (via injury or death) is the only means prudent to end the altercation.

 

[Scott Evans]

 

[Scott Evans]

 

[ACP]

FYI, I believe this is the story:

By MARTIN FINUCANE
Associated Press Writer
CAMBRIDGE, Mass. (AP) — One was a Harvard student walking home after a night of drinking and listening to reggae. The other was a young cook, relaxing after his shift, hungry for some pizza.
Their paths crossed early Saturday in a rundown section of town. They fought, and 18-year-old Michael Colono was killed. The student, Alexander Pring-Wilson, admits he stabbed Colono but says he acted in self-defense, said his lawyer, Jeffrey Denner.
Pring-Wilson, 25, of Colorado Springs, Colo., pleaded innocent Monday to murder. Pring-Wilson was ordered held without bail pending a hearing Friday.
Prosecutors say Pring-Wilson stabbed Colono, of Cambridge, five times outside a pizza shop in the city’s Riverside section.
Colono was sitting with a man and a woman in a car outside the shop when he and Pring-Wilson exchanged words. Prosecutors say Colono got out of the car and the two began fighting.
Colono’s friends tried to rush him to a hospital and briefly got lost. Eventually, an ambulance was called. Colono died at a hospital about 90 minutes after the stabbing.
Middlesex district attorney’s spokeswoman Emily LaGrassa said prosecutors expected to ask a grand jury to indict Pring-Wilson, the normal procedure in Massachusetts murder cases.
Denner, a prominent Boston attorney, has offered a spirited public defense. Denner has told reporters Pring-Wilson is a “gentleman†with an “impeccable†record who acted to defend himself. Neither Pring-Wilson nor Colono had a criminal record.
Colono’s family has also spoken out. About 20 relatives attended the arraignment, including Colono’s parents and four siblings, as well as his girlfriend, who is the mother of their 3-year-old child.
“Everyone’s talking about Harvard and all (Pring-Wilson’s) accomplishments,†said Marcos Colono, one of Colono’s brothers. “It’s irrelevant. Human nature will tell you, smart people still do stupid things.â€
Colono said his brother was a high school dropout who earned his GED.
Michael Christopher, manager at Tavern on the Charles in Boston, where Colono worked, said Colono was well-liked and respected.
“He was a gentleman, a gentle man,†he said. “It’s hard for us to believe what we’re reading in the papers about him starting this.â€
Denner has said that Pring-Wilson was with friends, drinking and dancing at a nightclub where a reggae band was playing. Pring-Wilson put the friends in a taxi and started walking to his apartment several miles away in Somerville when he met Colono.
Denner won’t provide details about the argument. But he said Pring-Wilson was being attacked by Colono and another man, not just by Colono as police alleged. Denner said his client pulled a pocket knife to get them to back off because “he was getting beaten very badly.â€
“He did not instigate this. He did not pursue it,†Denner said.
Denner said Pring-Wilson had been drinking, but denied that it made him aggressive.
Pring-Wilson’s mother, a former deputy district attorney in Colorado, flew to Cambridge along with Pring-Wilson’s stepfather for the arraignment. Wiping away tears, Cynthia Pring told reporters, “He’s actually a son that would make you very proud.â€
Pring-Wilson graduated with honors from Colorado College and planned to complete a master’s degree at Harvard’s Davis Center for Russian and Eurasian Studies this spring. He had already been accepted to law schools, his mother said.
Cambridge Mayor Michael Sullivan acknowledged there might be tensions between working-class people and students of the world-renowned university.
“Invariably, you get some issues,†he said. But he said serious conflicts were rare.
Harvard spokesman Joe Wrinn said “there is tension in any university city to some level between the town and the gown. That’s true onvery college campus.â€
But he also said “nothing whatsoever to this degree†had happened in Cambridge in recent memory.

 

[Scott Evans]

Well great … after my defense …

It would agree with the murder charge and a trial based on the more in-depth story now posted.

In general though; (as I was referring in my post above) the simple fact of delivering multiple wounds to an attacker is not sufficient in and of itself to charge the use of excessive force particularly when the defenders weapon is a knife.