Escalation of force with knife

[JShirley]

I agree with almost everything Sir Galahad said, though I would probably say It is a mistake to enter a knife fight without the inention of fighting to win , and leave it at that. Much like "shooting to stop" vs. "shooting to kill", we know that a dead perp cannot continue physically attacking you, the righteous and peaceloving defender. We will still most assuredly tell the police and everyone else thereafter and prior that our goal was to stop the attack.

brownie, it has been postulated that there are few "trained knife fighters", but quite a few decent knifers. A knife is not what one brings to stop a knife attack, but rather either an offensive close-range weapon for experts, or a tool pressed into service as an expedient weapon. One should *never* use a knife to defend when one has defensive options that will let you defend outside knifing distance. Sticks, chairs, anything not bolted down and light enough to be thrown, you name it, should you be caught without your firepower. Don't close that distance with a knife in your hand unless you are prepared to act decisively, and you have little other choice, if you want to live, or at least die on your feet.

John

 

[brownie0486]

Ah Yes, Unconventional weapons
They are always in the mix.

You do not close on a knife regardless of what you know.

We don't want people to think a knife is an offensive weapon. It's a tool pressed into service. If the anti's got ahold of that all folders [ knives ]would be banned from carry.

If you discount the dojo knife training which for the most part is where people get any knife instruction at all, there are few [ civilians] trained outside the special units of the US military. They get their instruction and training from real world people as they deal in a real world environment affording them access to the best techniques.

Outside that group and the folks who have specific training from these same people and a few others in the country, very few have the knowledge necessary to use one effectively while minimizing or negating the injuries suffered by themselves.

Most won't commit the amount of practice necessary to stay "timed" in an altercation with knives. Distance and timing between players as well as good techniques cuts the risk.

As well as your point on the three things that will eventually stop the attack, add the most important, which is "change his thought process".
The attack doesn't stop until your three unless you redirect his thought process which stops the attack immediately. Get them off their game plan.

Brownie

 

[Sir Galahad]

Brownie, you know, you were also on here saying there is basically some magic number to the number of times you can stab a person. Not trying to be didactic, and perhaps you were referring to an unarmed person being stabbed. But a common thing to do is underestimate an opponant. Being as you were not at the scenes of the fights and I was, you cannot safely assess what went down. You assumed what happened or what the training level was. And, you underestimated the level of those people. Being trained doesn't mean you will remember that training when the chips are down. Training cannot inculcate falling back on that training when you are actually in fear of your life. Until you've been in a few knife scraps, your training is what you're hoping will work against someone who may have already used a blade once or twice and already drawn blood. I agree that defensive training is good. But it is not the last word in knife fighting, either. The liberals already consider knives to be offensive weapons, by the way. That's why carrying a fixed blade concealed is a felony in many states and why some states forbid double-edged knives,butterfly knives, and autos.

 

[brownie0486]

I don't believe I said it was the last word [training] but without it you don't stand much chance against a knife. Even with the proper training you stand good chances of getting nailed, you just cut the risk of same.

I never said there was a magic number [ thats your assessment], just that there will be a number where the courts will scrutinize more closely your self defense claims and that people need to be cognizant of that fact whether they like it or not.

Training in defense of ones person with a knife is no different than training with a firearm in theory. The ones who take the time to develop say "swat skills and house clearings" and practice these and other advanced skills sets techniques using a pistol/SMG have a higher success rate of survival than a regular line officer when performing those tasks. No different with any high level training, if you are diligent in continuing to keep the skills level at optimum performance.

Having worked 30 years undercover and in covert ops and having combat experience with the US military and other paramilitary orgs from different locales in far away places I don't speak from a training view but from real world as well. I wasn't there to watch others, but to perform functions others find distasteful for the most part, giving me a perspective others don't have. The training does get you through these "events". Others less so usually were shipped home in BB's.

I don't underestimate the oppponent. If the opponent is a gang banger smoking crack all day or any of the other great sports they enjoy they are unlikely to have a level of skill that will match a formally trained knifer. Working the streets and training for 30 years does give one persepctive/experience/background not enjoyed by the masses. This doesn't preclude you getting your a## handed to you by an unknown with no skills however, as you mention. Have seen that also and it was determined our guy did in fact underestimate him and paid a high price for that attitude.

With knives it is not only technique but the developed timing and ability to wait for the opponent to make a mistake. These aren't learned on the streets, per se.

If you were under the impression I was speaking from some cerebral level and not a participant in real world events your assumptions were inaccurate which is understandable. I would agree that the people who only instruct others with no real world experiences combatively are suspect. I usually find these types in dojo's. BTW-I am in the dojo's to give students defensive knife tactics they don't get otherwise from that venue. I have never been a martial artist.

Brownie

 

[Sir Galahad]

Understood.

 

[banditele]

glad i am not in that guys shoes

 

[Byron Quick]

The main thing I've learned from this thread is something I already knew: don't go to the People's Republics,i.e, Massachussetts, Maryland, New Jersey, Illinois, California, etc.

Boy was stupid for not retreating. If he had, and had been followed and did this, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

[Penforhire]

Brownie, I appreciate your bringing us this thread and others in its vein.

I remain concerned about the primary issue, to me: if I was assaulted by two adult males I would not consider the presentation and use of my folder to be escalation, merely proper defense. Yes, I can see how multiple stabs might cause me some legal grief unless I can prove how he kept coming. But to employ lethal force seems reasonable in the foreknowledge that a beating can be fatal and I WOULD be in fear for my life.

If that is not true then I guess I'm a furture perp waiting to happen.

 

[Anthony]

He never would have been charged down here in Texas.

- Anthony

 

[brownie0486]

Read the article Keating wrote a few threads down form this at the moment offered by HSO.

Thanks HSO, I suppose you have figured out I share the same views as Jim.

Brownie

 

[hso]

Yep

Had a knife pulled on me, been jabbed with a screwdriver, had a MUCH larger guy grab me by the throat in a 2 to 1 situation, had a 4 to 1 "encounter". Never pulled my knife, much less use it, and each time that I didn't talk or run may way out of the situation I defaulted to training and came away with no or minor injuries (scewdriver).

 

[Melvin-Purvis]

Yep!

I'm with hso on this one...it's simply amazing how many times you can get punched in the face, hit in the head, kicked about, beat on by multiple assailant's, etc. and still come out on top without ever pulling a knife, OC, or a gun... (BTDT, x2)

Now, that's not to say that I don't carry a defensive knife, OC, and/or gun...I do. The only thing is, I've never had the opportunity to use them. If I'd had the time, I would've.

Brownie, your personal 'sitchashun', based on your past employment, contacts, demeanor, and current job, might be a bit different than that of most folks, so to some degree your advice may be just a little skewed to the 'right'. (ya think?)

That possibility notwithstanding, the simple reality is that to appease through passiveness is a sure-fire way to get screwed, and to thereby screw everyone that comes along after you.

Ugly as it may seem; active participant resistance with extreme prejudice is IMNSHO the only answer when confronted with implied harm in the form of aggression...come 'hell or high water'.

That's my read anyway, YMMV

Mel

p.s. My personal views on 'self-perseverance' should in no way be misconstrued as informed, just as they shouldn't be considered confrontational...live well, be safe, cover your six.

 

[brownie0486]

Melvin-Purvis:

Agreed.

Brownie

 

[Sir Galahad]

I've inadvertantly discovered, for myself, the "stinkbug defense". In nature, insects that are brightly colored are colored that way to show birds that they are not good to eat. Birds that have tried to eat them got a blast of chemical from the insect and know from then on not to eat those brightly colored insects. You'll laugh, but since I've collected a lot of tats on both arms, people generally leave me alone. The younger snot-noseds of the wanna-be hood world don't know where I got the tats and don't want to find out if I got them while serving a sentence for beating a guy half to death or not. Looking like you're not going to be a victim is enough to convince most street hoods to leave you alone. A lot has to do with the way you carry yourself. Chin up, walk like you own the place, and watch everyone out of the corner of your eye. Guy approaches you and starts mumbling, don't even look at the guy, just keep on walking. But watch the shadow on the sidewalk for the guy behind you. Lots of "getting rolled" starts with guys asking the time, for spare change, or for a light. In the gas station, you've got a de facto flame thrower in your hands as you refuel your car. Nothing takes the wind out of some POS thug's sails faster than a spray of gasoline all over him and whipping out a Zippo. Word of things like that gets around, too, and they know you're a crazy mofo and leave you alone. Works for me.