Tinpig
Member
Great story.
But hard to imagine that an army as thorough as the Wehrmacht's Heer never zeroed their rifles.
Tinpig
But hard to imagine that an army as thorough as the Wehrmacht's Heer never zeroed their rifles.
Tinpig
Ethic implications with milsurps?
- Thread starter Phaethon
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snake284
Member
Sorry, but I must disagree here about one point mentioned. Enola Gay, in my mind, played a very large part in ending the suffering on both sides of WWII. If we had not dropped that bomb on Hiroshima from Enola Gay and the one on Nagasaki from Box Car, the war would most likely have continued for another 6 months at least, killing far more people on both sides. As it was, at the time of the atom bomb raids on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the fire bombing raids that took place nightly over Japan were killing upwards of 100,000 Japanese civilians per night, as many as either atomic bomb raid did, and we were losing people too from Kamakazi attacks and planes being shot down over target.
Edited to Add:
The hard core Japanese military would never have surrendered if those bombs would not have been dropped. It was a wake up call for the Japanese and as I said, ultimately saved many, many lives.
Edited to Add:
The hard core Japanese military would never have surrendered if those bombs would not have been dropped. It was a wake up call for the Japanese and as I said, ultimately saved many, many lives.
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General Geoff
Member
Nowhere did I say the emotional baggage carried by the Enola Gay is negative. It is for many people, though (I'm not one of them).
edit; That's Bockscar
Jeff82
Member
Why don't you vindicate the weapon and use it to ensure no more holocausts?
country boy marksman
Member
exactly! If I buy the gun, it can't be used to commit more crimes, therefore, I am protecting people from danger by owning said firearms, keeping them out of the hands of those who would use them for the wrong reasons!... or something like that! 
If that's not a good reason to buy a gun, I don't know what is!
If that's not a good reason to buy a gun, I don't know what is!
Almost all of my guns have a military past. I enjoy spending time researching the markings and placing the work with a timeframe. It's a history lesson that I can hold and use.
As for my rifles that came from the opposite side, it's now in the proper hands.
When I show my firearms they come with a history lesson. When someone can hold a piece of history, I think they are more open to listening and learning.
As for my rifles that came from the opposite side, it's now in the proper hands.
When I show my firearms they come with a history lesson. When someone can hold a piece of history, I think they are more open to listening and learning.
Just as this bringback Chicom M 44 had been used by VCs to kill US troops.
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?215106-Chinese-Mosin.-Comments-from-the-experts
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?215106-Chinese-Mosin.-Comments-from-the-experts
The Nazis are kaput. Owning a a military 98 (or any other historic item) does not make one a Nazi nor does it suggest one approves of their actions.
Buying a Honda doesn't mean you think the Bataan Death March was a good idea. Same with owning a Type 99 rifle.
Buying a Honda doesn't mean you think the Bataan Death March was a good idea. Same with owning a Type 99 rifle.
toivo
Member
That pretty much says it all. When you take that rifle out, take a moment to meditate on what human beings are capable of doing to each other. Then promise yourself that you're always going to try to be one of the Good Guys, and shoot the heck out of it.
USAF_Vet
Member
I sleep well at night knowing my Mosin is loaded at arms reach and able to assist me if necessary in the defense of my home and family. That rifle may have been used to kill innocents, just like my Arisaka may have been used to kill Americans. The rifle is a tool, void of motive, or cognizant ability. It's history, while meaningful, does not effect my sleeping patterns. The fact that I own it now, and put it to use for honorable purposes is only the next chapter in the history of this rifle.
"without me, my rifle is useless."
jimmyraythomason
Member
Why limit it to firearms? What about the Japanese using living Chinese for bayonet training or the officer's swords used to behead American(and other) bound POWs?
RockyMtnTactical
Member
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2006
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- 3,539
Weapons are not good or bad. They do not have a personality or a way to choose who they serve. I have no problem owning a gun that was used by evil man or for evil purposes... when it's in my control, it serves good.
WardenWolf
member
I own a very early-production Arisaka 99 that was handed down to me by my grandfather. It is an early-production model, and was captured in 1945, late in the battle for Okinawa, one of the bloodiest battles of the entire war. There is an extremely high likelihood that this rifle was used to kill someone. We don't know the circumstances of its capture, as my grandfather bought it off another GI, but we know when it was made, and where and when it was found. That 70-year-old rifle still has a pristine bore and still shoots very accurately.
Do I have ethics problems owning and shooting that rifle? No. To me, it's a piece of family history, and an insight into the conditions and technology of the Japanese. I do sometimes think of the things that might have been done with that rifle, but I also think about actually fighting with that rifle. It's a good weapon, but American M1 Garands had it completely outclassed, both in firing rate and ammo capacity. The Japanese were completely outgunned.
Do I have ethics problems owning and shooting that rifle? No. To me, it's a piece of family history, and an insight into the conditions and technology of the Japanese. I do sometimes think of the things that might have been done with that rifle, but I also think about actually fighting with that rifle. It's a good weapon, but American M1 Garands had it completely outclassed, both in firing rate and ammo capacity. The Japanese were completely outgunned.
Being a churchgoing man, I believe in redemption. Sure, that gun may have seen/done things contrary to my national allegiance, but the gun is mine now. It is American, and it is with that weapon of war that it now exercises with me the cause of freedom and the right to bear arms.
A marked turnaround from its original purpose. +1 to every person who said the same thing I just did in one way or another.
A marked turnaround from its original purpose. +1 to every person who said the same thing I just did in one way or another.
So... anyone else thinking this is a little ridiculous? Just saying, people are having pissing match over stupid stuff that probably no one here had any direct firsthand experience. Yes Patton was a good soldier. Nazis were no good. Neither were the Soviets. Guess what Americans have killed civilians in war, name of the game. There are good JewS, and there are bad Jews... same goes for any group of people.
What does any of this have to do with whether it is morally ok to own a milsurp rifle?
Someone throw me a bone here please...
What does any of this have to do with whether it is morally ok to own a milsurp rifle?
Someone throw me a bone here please...
*throws a bone at M.C.*
The emotional premise from the OP is parallel to the one employed by Gun Control advocates. Not saying the OP is GC, but if we judge firearms by their history or their users, we play right into the GC way of thinking. We all know that guns do not kill people on their own, but if the history of a firearm has you feeling uncomfortable... put the thing on display and make it a learning experience for its viewers.
The emotional premise from the OP is parallel to the one employed by Gun Control advocates. Not saying the OP is GC, but if we judge firearms by their history or their users, we play right into the GC way of thinking. We all know that guns do not kill people on their own, but if the history of a firearm has you feeling uncomfortable... put the thing on display and make it a learning experience for its viewers.
Palehorseman
Member
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- Feb 28, 2009
- Messages
- 736
I, at some point, began reading about the Romanian's involvement in helping Nazi Germany exterminate the Jews, and how Romania's contribution to the Holocaust was the largest, second to Germany itself. After learning that there's a possibility my rifle could have been used to kill innocent Jewish people, I'm not sure how I feel about it. I've considered selling it.
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I have a FN 98 that was rebarreled to 7.62 NATO by the Israelis back in the 1960s. Before that they used ex-Nazi Mausers in original 8x57 to confront the enemy to their front.
Me, I would not get too hung up on who had it previously or what it might have been used for, it would be just a tool like a wrench or a hammer I picked up at a yard sale.
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I have a FN 98 that was rebarreled to 7.62 NATO by the Israelis back in the 1960s. Before that they used ex-Nazi Mausers in original 8x57 to confront the enemy to their front.
Me, I would not get too hung up on who had it previously or what it might have been used for, it would be just a tool like a wrench or a hammer I picked up at a yard sale.
JustinJ
Member
I don't have an issue with it because surplus weapons have no impact on what happened already. Now if i'm buying surplus weapons from a country that is currently committing atrocities then one could arguably say my money is funding the atrocities. However, i am adamantly against predator hunting as i was raised to believe you only shoot what you eat so i do have qualms about buying from manufacturers that actively market towards that purpose.
Since this has turned into History 310 (with several of the lectures being deleted - you can find them in the class syllabus), we'll close it now.
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