Ethical or legal?

[ezypikns]

Only Legal in Two East Texas Counties.

Hunting deer with hounds is traditional in many parts of the south, though. It's kind of like rabbit hunting with a pack of Beagle hounds. A group of hunters will station themselves in a line with plenty of distance between them. The distance would certainly be closer if the hunters were using shotguns. The dogs start or jump a deer and trail it by smell, not by sight so the deer is not always running full out. The dogs may run the deer for quite a while before a hunter gets a shot. You get to listen to the dogs 'music" plus you know when the deer may be coming your way.

 

[PBIR]

I don't have an ethical problem with it. In Tennessee, you cannot use dogs for deer. You can use them for other game with exceptions (like no firearms if you are using dogs for bobcats, foxes or coyotes during deer season).

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Quote from sumpnz...

" He's not a hunter. He's a lazy harvester."

Well there is a heck of a value statement. We could extend it further, if you like. For example, the hunter is probably using a gun. How much more lazy does it get. He isn't even trying if he uses a gun as his physical exertian is minmal and he doesn't have to be any closer in than a few hundred yards!

While not using a dog, even more lazy are the deer snipers. What is a deer sniper? That is one of those people who shoots a deer from a blind and the deer shot is one investigating the now empty feeder bin where the human had put out deer corn and let the gizmo drop food every day for a month before deer season. It isn't hunting, just sniping where the deer was baited via conditioning to a location where bait no longer exists.

If you are not running down the deer on your own two feet and wrestling it to the ground where you then kill it by forceful biting in the carotid, then you are just a pathetic lazy human who relies on technology to do most of the work for you! You should be ashamed if you use anything beyond what you were born with.

While I may or may not agree with any of these statements, they show you can take the value statements to whatever level you want so as to what determines a lazy procurer of deer from a dynamic hunter.

Actually, I am inclined to believe that the hunter who uses a dog to flush deer is already a hunter out on foot and covering territory. That isn't lazy at all compared to the guy who sits in a deer blind, drinking coffee, and waiting for a deer to show at a feeder. Plus, if the dog is flushing deer, then the hunter is likely not shooting a stationary animal. So the difficulty level for hitting the prey goes way up and so that means he probably has a fair investment in tme and effort learning to hunt that way. Hell, anyone can hit a stationary deer from a deer blind.

As for the use of the dogs being ethical, ethics are like religion and religion largely consists of a value system. What is ethical to one person may not be ethical to another even though neither person may be doing something wrong in terms of society or the law.

 

[Mannlicher]

Generally not allowed in Fla, if I recall correctly. You can hunt with dogs, in desiginated areas. Darned unethical if you ask me. Some of the worst 'sportsmen' I have ever encountered, where I hunt in North Fla, are the dog guys.

 

[Art Eatman]

Mannlicher, do you reckon it might be more accurate to say that unethical guys get involved in hunting with dogs?

To repeat myself, I find it difficult to find an inherent lack of ethics in a method of hunting that's been a part of our heritage for thousands of years.

Art

 

[ClarkEMyers]

Been told it's a cheapskate's date

Been told by an occasional woman that listening to hounds is not a fun date -

I do feel compelled to say that any judgment that hunting with dogs is never ethical no matter the time or place is in my own judgment flat wrong - and any judgment that it is always ethical overlooks a few things.

Still and all, if all the information available is the use of dogs my first reaction is to assume it's ethical.

See e.g. Donald Hamilton writing (fact and Matt Helm fiction) about the use of dogs in settings I find exotic but others on this Board would find within walking distance. In no case could I object to the use he describes.

 

[Stand_Watie]

He's not a hunter. He's a lazy harvester.

I don't draw any value distinction between hunting and harvesting, nor between efficient vs. innefficient methods of hunting/harvesting.

 

[TrapperReady]

AFAIK - not legal in these parts. Personally, I'd consider it to be ethical. Heck, I consider whitetail deer to be a tasty pest. I know things are different from state to state, but the deer population is huge right now, and I'd rather have a guy use his dog to harvest some than create more speed bumps.

 

[Bigjake]

If you are not running down the deer on your own two feet and wrestling it to the ground where you then kill it by forceful biting in the carotid, then you are just a pathetic lazy human who relies on technology to do most of the work for you! You should be ashamed if you use anything beyond what you were born with.

damn, looks like i'll need to see about getting a refund on that loincloth and spear, since i'll be going comando, tooth and nail.

 

[mustanger98]

Notice, DoubleNaughtSpy did say

While I may or may not agree with any of these statements, they show you can take the value statements to whatever level you want so as to what determines a lazy procurer of deer from a dynamic hunter.

I was telling my Daddy about this thread and he said anybody who says "people who hunt deer with dogs is lazy" hasn't hunted deer with dogs.

Oh, and I'm a "deer sniper" type, but I'm not hunting over an inactive feeder. I set up my blind- a peice of fence mesh (aka "hogwire") laced with white pine boughs in a V-shape in front of my seat which is strapped (not permanently) to the side of a tree. My blind is set up where a lot of does come through feeding on naturally occurring feed/forage. I also use scent wicks. The bucks come in to check out the does. I don't consider that lazy; it's just what works best for me.

 

[Newt]

It's legal and for the most part very popular here to hunt with dogs. Mostly the ol' timers like to just hear the races the dogs have.

I, personally, don't have a problem with it. I grew up with it, but if I had my choice, I'd rather hunt without them. I find my chances are better if the dogs don't get bambi all stirred up and out of the habitual routine. I can only recall one time since I was old enough to hunt that a race actually came by my stand and I got the deer.

 

[mustanger98]

I was just reminded of something else my Daddy said about his experience with deer w/dogs- he said it's best not to let the dogs off the leash, but rather to have two guys with a dog apeice space out and walk in the direction of the line of hunters. Walk slow and the deer will move ahead without getting worked up. Daddy said it's easier to shoot that way too. And actually, he also said the drive guys don't have to have dogs either because the deer will move ahead of humans alone.

I'm reminded of one time about five years ago, we had these stupid dogs lived across the road and they'd run the deer. I was out there leaning on a tree with my rifle for a while and just before dark I decided I better get headed back to the house. Well, I got stood up straight and slung my rifle and here comes a nice buck, about five points, bouncing across the open field to my right. He got up there about 20' from me, stopped, looked at me, looked back where he came from, then took off across to my left and into heavy cover. I can't say I ever saw him again. Then here comes those two stupid neighbor dogs. Actually, the deer looked like he was having fun at the dogs' expense. If I hadn't slung my rifle, or if I'd had a shotgun, or if... I could've had him. But I didn't.

 

[rugerman]

When I was a kid in LA (lower alabama) deer were few and far between and you hunted them on organized drives with dogs and shotguns using buckshot. Standers were strung out and then the dogs and drivers went into the swamps, thickets, etc and ran them out. Only bucks were legal and the meat was divided amoung all those who wanted it. Now deer are everywhere and dog hunting is getting to be a thing of the past. One reason that its called dog hunting is that you spend a large part of your time getting your dogs back after the hunt. We used to have a dog club that would lease a small area and then turn their dogs loose on surrounding peoples land in hopes of running the deer off that land onto their own, they would put standers on the roads and on other folks land to. So when we caught their dogs we would take them to the night dropoff at the local dog pound and they would call them to come get their dogs and charge them 25 buck a head. One day I took 15 dogs to the pound, they no longer hunt in our part of the county.

 

[Black Dragon]

It's not legal in Michigan to use a dog to run deer during hunting season.

In Montana, my buddies will shoot at any dog they see that is running
deer. But wild dogs can be a problem in their area. The wild dogs will also
go after the cattle and horses.

 

[autumn_faune]

How about Bear?

ok so I'm really really a newb to guns and hunting, and I don't know how it would work to hunt bear using dogs-- but I do know that the dogs I owned/showed before I became acquainted with guns (Japanese Akitas) were bred into two strains- one for babysitting the children, the other for bear hunting.

Seems that would be a lot more dangerous to the dog, though- to me.

same questions as the thread post, though.

thanks

Sarah

 

[Stand_Watie]

It's not legal in Michigan to use a dog to run deer during hunting season. In Montana, my buddies will shoot at any dog they see that is running deer. But wild dogs can be a problem in their area. The wild dogs will also go after the cattle and horses...

In both Maine and Michigan I've heard deer hunters say that they automatically would shoot any dog they see running a deer. As far as I know it's illegal in both states. I know that hunters claim in the northern states particularly that feral, or even pet dogs running deer will pretty much automatically kill the deer, even if the dog never catches the deer because they will run off the deer's winter fat supply. I haven't heard so much of that here in Texas, I don't know if it's because the winters are mild and the deer are less likely to starve or because there is more of a southern dog/deer hunting tradition.

Regardless, I believe that responsible hunters should kill feral dogs whenever legal and possible, and responsible dog owners should keep highly visible collars on their dogs and their dogs on their own property so they can be easily distinguished.

 

[Stand_Watie]

How about Bear?
ok so I'm really really a newb to guns and hunting, and I don't know how it would work to hunt bear using dogs-- but I do know that the dogs I owned/showed before I became acquainted with guns (Japanese Akitas) were bred into two strains- one for babysitting the children, the other for bear hunting. Seems that would be a lot more dangerous to the dog, though- to me.

Absolutely Sarah. Dogs are used for hunting bear in many places. I believe that that is a big controversy in Maine right now. I suspect it is very dangerous for the dogs if they actually tangle with the bear, but that the idea is that the dogs chase the bear up a tree, or if they actually fight with the bear that it is 3 or 4 dogs vs one bear, and that there is a hunter there very quickly with a rifle to dispatch the bear before he kills the dogs. They hunt feral hogs with dogs here in Texas, and I understand they actually make heavy leather body armor for dogs which might be fighting with a hog.

I don't think there is any dog that you could expect to actually take on a grown bear in a "fair" one on one fight and walk away from it.

 

[mustanger98]

ok so I'm really really a newb to guns and hunting, and I don't know how it would work to hunt bear using dogs--

Seems that would be a lot more dangerous to the dog, though- to me.

I've heard from some guys who use Cattahoulla (sp?) Leopard Cur dogs and pitbulls to hunt bear and hogs. Those ain't "find 'em" dogs, but rather catch dogs. They'll either keep a bear or hog circling till the hunter gets there, or they'll jump on and bite down on the ears. As was mentioned, it's done with multiple dogs. Yeah, it's dangerous to the dogs, but the odds get stacked in the dogs' favor by their numbers plus the armed hunter.

A dog by himself out in the yard, as I've heard happened, when a bear walks through don't have the chance he does while hunting with the pack and with a armed human hunter.

BTW, it's the same story with rounding up wild cattle- some weighing up to a ton- using dogs.

 

[ezypikns]

You Will Notice

that most of the folks opposed to deer hunting with dogs are Yankees or Westerners. It's simply not done up north or out west. I wouldn't blame any one of them for shooting a dog that was running their deer.

 

[Stand_Watie]

that most of the folks opposed to deer hunting with dogs are Yankees or Westerners...

I'll point out that I'm a yankee by birth and don't object to any method of hunting that is environmentally responsible. But then I was smart enough to move to Texas while I was still a fairly young man.

Yeah, you're right, culture plays a lot into it

 

[ezypikns]

Stand_Watie IS a Texan.

Welcome sir. Remember that the only native born Texans who died in the Alamo were Tejanos opposed to Santa Anna's dictatorship.

 

[Stand_Watie]

Welcome sir. Remember that the only native born Texans who died in the Alamo were Tejanos opposed to Santa Anna's dictatorship

Thank you sir. I may not be not be a native Texan, but I married one, and now I have an eight year old native Texan as my daughter. I figure that qualifies me for some special consideration Also my grandfather-in-law started the Mesquite rodeo....he was a genuine Texas/Oklahoma cowboy as well as an American Indian so I like to claim his name as my heritage as well.

Texas' claim to history is about as illustrious as you can get in the united states I figure. A lot of great patriots here of all colors, creeds and religions.

Did you know that our native son, Sam Houston, despite being white, was one of the formost Indian sympathizers and abolitionists of his day?

A lot of national pride in being Texan I think.