Ever notice that none of the police/military guns are loaded?

[Peter M. Eick]

I have been road tripping it a lot for the last 2 months, mostly overseas. It really struck me that I almost NEVER see a guard/military/police internationally with a loaded gun. What gives and have you noticed the same thing?

I was in Tripoli this week, I saw a lot of AK's with 2x mags taped together. The bottom mag never had any ammo. I saw several bolts open with no ammo in the mags. I saw beretta's with chamber indicator's with no live rounds. Even at Kadafi's place and at the museum, no ammo.

I was in Gatwick and Heathrow. We walked by a support military team in both. I saw the mag pouches on the soldiers were full of mags, no ammo. Several of the bullpups were bolt open. No ammo.

I was in Amsterdam and the Hague. Same situation.

When I hit the states, walking through the airport to immigration, same situation.

So what is the deal. Do they not trust the average soldier/police?

Just an observation.

 

[whm1974]

So what is the deal. Do they not trust the average soldier/police?

It seems not. I could see having full mags and the main gun not being loaded, but not having any ammo at all.

-Bill

 

[Steve in PA]

When I was in Beirut, Lebanon in 1983, we were not allowed to have a loaded magazine in our weapons, either inside our perimeter, or when we went out into the city on patrol!!!! Yeah, that last until the first check point outside the main gate, then we were all locked and loaded. Eventually we were "officially" allowed to load our weapons outside the gate.

I'm interested to know how you observed the Beretta's chamber indicater? You got that close to that many people who are walking around with their pistols in their hands?

 

[spook]

An acquaintance of mine who is a detective in the Netherlands keeps his Walther loaded. He was very pleased when the 9mm kurtz was replaced with the 9x19 as the issue weapon.

 

[KC&97TA]

Your average Person Other that Grunt... POG, isn't trusted to keep live ammo at the ready. It amazes me how non-combat arms units handle them selves.

The first tour over here I witnessed the Army unit that flew in with us, actually pull thier bolt carrier groups from thier cargo pockets and put thier rifles back together in Kuwait. This isn't a bash on all of the Army, just who ever that unit was, I've worked with many Army units that were good to go.

Times have changes... I was forced by orders to change units were haveing 30 rounds in Iraq is perfectly normal and going an entire deployment with out even monthly BZO's is normal. If there was a schedualed range it would most likely flop, because nobody wants to clean the carbon out of thier weapons. Most of the personel in my unit would be hard pressed to dismantle an M16, and oh help us god if they ever had to touch a machine gun. While assisting with tactical ranges before deploying there was 2 instaces were rifles wouldn't eject brass, the armorrer couldn't figure it out, I took a look... the extractor was missing from the bolt, it happened a second time and I couldn't believe what I was seeing

Back track 18 months of my life, while on a FOB we slept with Condition 3 Rifles and our pistols were always Condition 3 if not 1.

for the non-usmc fokes (Condition 3 is mag inserted, no round in chamber. condition 1 is mag inserted, round in the pipe)

 

[M2 Carbine]

So what is the deal. Do they not trust the average soldier/police?

No, "they" the politicians and higher ups would rather put the soldiers and police at risk rather than chance an "incident".

During the race riots in the early 1960s I was a Warrant Officer helicopter pilot in the Maryland National Guard.
I was told I was needed as a platoon leader because the Guard Units at the riots were short of junior Officers.
I said, instead of an issue weapon can I carry my own 1911 45 or Carbine and how much ammo should I check out for the troops.

I was told, "No ammo. No Guard members are allowed ammo, including you."
I said, "There's no way I'm getting in the middle of a riot with an empty 45 and no men under my command will have empty weapons. They will have loaded M1's if I have to supply the ammo myself".

There was the usual threats by my Guard bosses but they decided they didn't need me as a platoon leader.
They wouldn't even let me fly over the rioters.
I guess afraid something might fall from my chopper and hurt one of the "voters".

I found out later that my two brothers, in a ground unit, were sent to the riots and were almost hurt because the rioters knew the Carbines were empty.

Even the Baltimore Police were ordered to empty their guns.

 

[bogie]

Can anyone say "accidental discharge?"

 

[spook]

According to a report in the Miami Herald after the hurricane Andrew an army patrol was held up and its M-16's taken as they had no ammo. Thereafter the national guard went along on patrol as they had ammo and could defend the patrols..

 

[MikeIsaj]

When I was in Beirut, Lebanon in 1983, we were not allowed to have a loaded magazine in our weapons, either inside our perimeter, or when we went out into the city on patrol!!!!

I was there in '83 also, I have to disagree.

All were required to have weapons and ammo on them at all times. M-16s were unloaded in the compound. When you went outside the perimiter, or were on a guard post, weapons were locked and loaded and on safe. Sidearms were loaded with a magazine and an empty pipe in the compound. All weapons were cleared at the gate upon return.

Now those were the MAU rules. Subordinate commanders were known to implement more stringent rules. They were usually the "lambs" afraid of the attention a ND would bring. They put their careers ahead of their men. In one such case I found a Lance Corporal truck driver who had removed the firing pin from his M-16 to prevent a ND and the resulting punishment. All drivers from this unit were checked before they went out with me after that.

There was an Army detail that arrived in country with no weapons at all! They were technicians there to try out their new target aquisition radar. They actually booked rooms in the Cadmos Hotel in downtown Beirut!

 

[Keith Wheeler]

First time I went to Europe I flew in to Austria. One could sit and count the bullets in the translucent Steyr AUG mags...

 

[Justin]

In Communist Russia, gun loads you!

Think of it this way:

Terrorists are like vampires. But instead of waving a cross at them to make them go away, you have to wave a gun at them.

Works every time.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

I am glad I am not the only one wondering about this. A question was asked above how you could tell. In most of these countries the rush of poeple takes you very very close to the military guys if you just wander along. I was less than a meter many times from the guards in Tripoli. They don't seem to even notice you except to see how tall you are. Very interesting to be 6 ft 5 in in a country of 5 ft 6" folks.

 

[BlackJack]

Negligent (accidental) discharge is a statistically huge problem for military and police units that don't handle their weapons often. Even in combat units theoretically trained in firearms handling there are periodic unintentional discharges with often tragic results. Commanders are concerned about many things, but minimizing risk to their personal careers (i.e. covering their butts) is always a major consideration. Nothing will get you canned faster than having a member of your command get killed or injured outside of combat. Since the military is asked to do very dangerous things, everything is seen as a risk to a commander, especially aggressive training that involves firearms. So many commanders just don't do it unless they're forced to. This, of course, only amplifies the risk when firearms use does happen. So commanders defend themselves by issuing orders to leave firearms unloaded. They are willing to take the chance that one of their soldiers/police officers will be injured or killed due to the delay in putting their firearm into action because they feel this is less likely than someone getting injured or killed by a negligent/accidental discharge.

While commanders who put these orders in effect are morally wrong since they are putting those on our first line of defense at a disadvantage, they are statistically right since ND/ADs destroy more careers than surprise attacks. And when surprise attacks do come, it's rare that rapid return fire will resolve the problem in a favorable way.

"Political correctness" is only a veneer over the top of this kind of situation.

 

[rero360]

hmmm.... every stateside deployment I've been on we've carried our 16s with a loaded mag inserted but empty chamber, and our 9s were loaded, round in the chamber, weapon on safe. I've had to deal with POGs on two of the deployments and it was funny, at the begging we would go to a range to qual and these guys would talk all this crap about shooting 40 out of 40 when they were in basic, then they go up to the line and they can't even hit the paper, then they ask about me and I tell them I shoot 36, everytime, I know its a mental thing that messes me up those last 4 rounds, but I'm consistant and I know what I can do, which is alot more than those POS. I can't help it that I'm a grunt and damn proud of it.

 

[ctdonath]

The MP5s in Munich Airport sure looked loaded to me ... although the guy holding it either knew it wasn't actually loaded or didn't care much about his thumb, which was very firmly planted over the muzzle.

It's distressing how often American troops are not allowed to have loaded weapons. That's a key reason why I won't join up: don't put me in harm's way and then order me to disarm.

Negligent (accidental) discharge is a statistically huge problem for military and police units that don't handle their weapons often.

The solution, then, is to have them handle their weapons often.

 

[James T Thomas]

Remember Pearl Harbor

I'm reminded of the imminent threat of the Japanese Government when the USA and others threatened their oil supply prior the the Day That Will Be Remembered in Infamy! Wasn't Gen. Walter Short resposible for the ammunition storage being locked? War was likely, and the good General was away playing golf or something.

In 1967 I was taking Advanced Infantry Training at Ft. Lewis, WA, and had drawn guard duty at a reservation oil depot somewhere away from the main complex. Me and one other hapless guard were given empty M14's and fixed bayonets to guard millions of dollars worth of petroleum supplies, and no radio communication or even calling of the guard to get assistance!
The military -then was guided by the "lawyers" who could defend the slaying of two unarmed guards much easier than justification of shooting some threats to our lives and the loss of that government property.

During the riots caused by the killing of M.Luther King, I was with the 82nd Airborne Div. We were issued ammo, planeside at Polk AFB, because the National Guard troops had their ammo -less M1's forceably removed from them as they were standing at fire barrels warming their hands. Near the Little Sisters of the Poor in Washington, D.C. (It was quite a sight to look out of our C110 windows and see fires burning everwhere within the nation's capital. When the politicians were threatened firsthand -then the troops were issued ammunition. So it goes.

Saw two AD in Vietnam. One of the machine gunners sat on a mound out in the jungle and began to clean his 45. Bang, it went off and removed the button off of the shirt of the man sitting next to him! A grazing shot.
Fist fight over that one.
Then we were being resupplied by the Huey's and just as our man on the ground positioned himself under the hovering helicopter, the door gunner let his M60 flop down; it was mounted on a metal post. The bolt flew forward and one shot rang out. The ground man was shot in the buttocks. A "golden" wound.
Knew of an armored unit that had several men killed when some branches or brush tangled in the trigger of an M60 (machine gun) that was mounted on the top of an armored personnel carrier, and the bullets struck the men riding on the top of the APC to the front of the formation. War zones are full of danger from all sources.

Support our troops. Not with slogans, but write those representatives, senators, and the Commander in Chief!

I have a suspicion that right now, for instance, our troops at the Korean DMZ are without ammo just to insure no one fires accidentally and begins a new war. Yet, the North is becoming dangerously more aggressive, and the opposing forces do face each other across a wide area so that any approach would be spotted. There would be no accidents. If I remember correctly, didn't some of the N. Koreans kill some of our unarmed men with axes some years ago?

Get after those politicians while there is time.

 

[NMshooter]

Plenty of folks with unloaded firearms were in Saudi.

One noteable exception was the Royal Guard or "red hats".

You better believe they were ready to shoot, and did not have to worry about asking permission to do it either.

 

[RyanM]

Think of it this way:

Terrorists are like vampires. But instead of waving a cross at them to make them go away, you have to wave a gun at them.

Works every time.

That only works because if you press the cross to the vampire's forehead, it burns them. Same with guns. Kind of.

 

[jkswiss]

They wouldn't even give us an unloaded Beretta during security drills. We used weapons of opportunity and 3x5 index cards with the words Handgun, and another index card with the words magazine on it. Then the command wondered why we couldn't take these drills seriously.

 

[armoredman]

They wouldn't even give us an unloaded Beretta during security drills. We used weapons of opportunity and 3x5 index cards with the words Handgun, and another index card with the words magazine on it. Then the command wondered why we couldn't take these drills seriously.

Good grief, it's amazing we win! How can we go on this way, namby pamby the enemy to death? Throw lawyers at him? The Navy did the same with me 20 years ago, with the unloaded 1911 on ship security alerts. I carried it with the magazine half inserted, slide locked back, one finger holding the mag in, the thumb on the slide release. It wasn't the best, but the best I could do at the time.
Thank the Good Lord above that when combat does raise it's ugly head, the smart commanders ditch the lawyer types, and break out the killers.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

It doesn't just apply to weapons either. When I was Deployed to the Balkans we were Internationally laughed at and called Teenaged Mutant Ninja Turtles for the full battle rattle we had to wear.

 

[CAPTAIN MIKE]

Too Many 'Accidental Discharges'

Had 30 years military service. Basic fact: many who CAN bear arms forget what they learn in basic and do not practice sufficiently often to retain their skills at the level they should.

Yes, I agree. Locked and loaded is the way to go. However, there have been many Negligent Discharges and unsafe carry problems that the higher ups said, "Well.....maybe not."

 

[alellis]

I attended a course run by the Royal Artillary at Woolwich Arsenal London England in about '86-'87. Just a few years after it had been bombed by the IRA.

The guards who patroled the perimiter at night were armed with pickshafts.

Painted green of course.


al

 

[chopinbloc]

The first tour over here I witnessed the Army unit that flew in with us, actually pull thier bolt carrier groups from thier cargo pockets and put thier rifles back together in Kuwait.

that's actually pretty common while on aircraft. sometimes troops fly on chartered flights with their weapons and are required to remove their bolt carrier groups. sometimes even air force flights will require this but it is less common. usually it's enough to just clear the weapon.

while deployed conus in support of air force security forces, we always had a magazine inserted in our m16 with an empty chamber and selector switch on safe. m9s were kept with a round in the chamber and weapon on fire (af policy). while deployed oconus my m16 has always had a full magazine inserted, chamber empty and weapon on safe except when i went outside the wire, in which case a round was chambered. some troops keep a round in the chamber of their m9s and some don't. the dutch, romanian, british and australian troops all had loaded weapons when i could tell.

 

[Dorian]

http://sigforum.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/230601935/m/80210218/p/1

Ammo? What Ammo?

Oh.. and don't post to that thread. It's over a year old.