Experiences with .38S&W BP loads

[mrmeval]

I'd like to pick up one of the small .38S&W pistols, I know they require a BP load.

There is a company I've found who has these loaded with BP at what I consider a reasonable price.

What brands of revolver are usually in the best shape but have little collector value?

Would you happen to know of gunsmiths who would specialize in repairing these older revolvers and have had a good experience with?

I may want to load up my own cartridges for it, is there any kind of reloading manual for Goex, Pyrodex or the like for that cartridge?

 

[Steve499]

Several years back I bought 3 old top break Hopkins & Allen .38 S&W revolvers for a song. ( I sing poorly, too.) One was in good shape and had about a 4 inch barrel on it, the other two were short barrelled and one of those was pretty much junk. I couldn't find any .38 S&W ammunition for them so I made my own from .38 special cases. I trimmed them enough so a 148 grain semi-wadcutter crimped in it's crimp groove would chamber and allow the cylinder to rotate. I loaded them with black powder but I don't recall now how much the case would hold. Anyway, they were very mild to say the least! Fired at seasoned wood they would bury the bullet just up to the bullet's base, and that was with some bullet shortening due to deformation. I also had fouling problems with the commercial lube in the lube ring (singular) of those cast .38 bullets. The mediocre accuracy with a clean bore went south fast unless I ran a wet patch down the bore every 3 or 4 shots. After testing them, I gave up on the black powder.

The original .38 S&W black powder round was maybe loaded with a heeled bullet in a balloon head case, both of which would allow more powder capacity than I was able to get in my modern solid cases with a deeply seated bullet. As far as a loading manual , I wouldn't worry about charge weight in modern cases. You won't be able to even replicate the original charges so your loads will be less than those even if you compress the powder some. The problem of finding a bullet with a large enough lube carrying capacity to keep the fouling soft in the barrel is what really made me give up on them. I didn't mind the anemic loads since I was only intending to plink with them anyway, but it was just too much hassle to have to swab out the bore twice with every cylinder.

Steve

 

[Phillip Allen]

Following up on the post above about diminished powder capacity...

I have found that powder brands make a bigger difference than I thought possible (after acquiring a chronograph). For my 40-65 I have PMC factory cases and Winchester 45-70 cases necked down...of these and a few Remington 45-70 and Federal 45-70 cases I have found the Winchester cases will hold about 3g more than the closest of the others and it makes a difference in velocity. Add to that the three brands I have to experiment with in black powder: Swiss FFFg, GOEX FFFg and Elephant FFFg and velocity falls off dramatically with the Swiss being the highest and Elephant the lowest. The Swiss powder is quite a bit faster than the other two.

Back to the cut down .38 specials, one would need to ream the inside of those cases to remove the considerable thickening in the cases…you can’t fix the solid web heads but reaming will help.

 

[Old Fuff]

You didn't make the point clear, but I presume you have top-break revolvers in mind.

Smith & Wesson originated the top-break, and through the period they were manufactured made the best ones. The .38 S&W pocket models (some with barrels as long as 6 inches) were made with the same care and materials that went in to their big .44's. When their patents ran out any number of firms entered the market with less costly copies, but none of them matched the S&W when it came to quality.

The various clones may or may not be safe to shoot, but most of them are so inaccurate they are worthless for shooting unless you are satisfied with softball-sized groups at five yards.

While they cost more today, the S&W's exhibit excellent accuracy if they are in good condition and good ammunition is used. In addition they are the only ones in the bunch that have any serious prospects so far as collector value goes.

It should be remembered that these revolvers are supposed to be fed .360" diameter bullets, not .358" and best accuracy won't be obtained by using undersized bullets. Cut-down .38 Special cases shouldn't be used, as the correct .38 S&W ones are available. I would also point out that S&W made their .38 D.A. series of top-breaks up to 1911, and the last of the line, the Perfected Model (a cross between a hand ejector and top-break) as late as 1920. The Safety Hammerless .38 wasn't discontinued until about 1940. Any of these made during the 20th century is safe to shoot with modest smokeless loads if the revolver itself is in sound condition.

Because of the short case, you can't overload the .38 S&W with black powder or black powder substitute. As with cap & ball revolvers, a lubricated felt wad between the powder charge and bullet base will help control the fouling.

 

[Phillip Allen]

the lubed felt wad will help for sure...however, I tested a cap & ball with the wonder wads by carefully loading it "clean" then storing it for 6 months...squib loads resulted.

 

[mrmeval]

Thank you for the information gentlemen. I will consider a true S&W but they have so much value as a collectable I wanted a less expensive one that was still of that period. If I can find an S&W that has had the history scrubbed off of it but is still in working condition and isn't too awful I will grab it.

 

[Tight_Wad]

.38S&W BP Loads

The Speer manual gives nominal bullet dia for this cartridge as .360" so you may find .357" bullets a tad undersize. The earlier post was correct in stating that the original bullet had a step or heel which went inside the case - much like the .22 rimfire. If your .38S&W has deep rifling you may be ok but if not you are unlikely to get good accuracy from an undersize bullet, especially if the power is low and insufficient to expand it into the grooves.

Tight Wad

 

[John-Melb]

When I had an Enfield I sometimes used to run Black through for fun.

Use hollow base wadcutters as they expand into the rifling better with light loads. Set them to go into the case just enough to grip and not foul the cylinder when loaded.

If a Smith is too pricey, what about a .38 Webley?

 

[Old Fuff]

It's getting to be that Webley's in good condition cost as much or more then some vintage Smith & Wesson's. This past weekend I picked up a junker S&W (made about 1883) that I'll have to rebuild a bit, but it's sound and will still shoot double-action.

Cost me all of $40.00 out the door.