This seems to me to be a classic case of misplacing blame. There would be far fewer "accidental discharges" if these officers had recieved more thorough training with their weapons. It sounds like the Glock's did exactly what they were designed to do, the guns were loaded, the fools put their finger on the trigger, and it went off, sounds about right to me.
Experts Find Glocks Prone To Accidents
- Thread starter Drizzt
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SWMAN
Member
There is one SIMPLE rule that will prevent a Glock or any other firearm from "accidentially " going off: Treat each gun as if it were loaded. Keep your finger off the trigger unless you mean to shoot. I have cop buddies who are careless with weapons, especially their baby Glocks. They have no real firearms training, (yeah, they went to a police academy, work for a major metro department, but didn't learn or bother to take seriously firearms safety). Too bad so many communities and schools cut out shooting programs over the last couple of decades. Our future LEOs and shooters could use the early safety training.
Mikul
Member
The revolver trigger is longer and heavier, usually by a lot. I like to think of the Glock as a 1911 without the safety.
I don't own a Glock and shoot single-action guns exclusively. I had to borrow a friend's Glock for a day and it took all of 20 rounds to get back up to speed. My revolver is a completely different beast.
The Glock is a good design, but it isn't a toy and doesn't come with on/off switches so you can treat it like one.
Treylis
Member
I was quite pleased with that myself.
keyhole
Member
:banghead:
Dumb hurts. Follow da rules, and it doesn't happen!
Dumb hurts. Follow da rules, and it doesn't happen!
mussi
Member
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Partisan Ranger
Member
When I got to the part about "if you accidently unload the weapon in the wrong order,' I had to stop and think.
I thought, they couldn't possibly not know..... You mean there are gun-trained people out there who don't know you have to pull the mag out then rack the slide to make the gun safe?
I'm no genius, but I never had to give this a moment's thought. It seems fairly logical that if your Glock is locked and loaded, you'd need to make the gun safe by removing the mag and clearing the chamber. Duh?
I'm surprised these people are able to get through a day without adult supervision.
I suppose they still need someone to tell them to look both ways when they cross the street.
I thought, they couldn't possibly not know..... You mean there are gun-trained people out there who don't know you have to pull the mag out then rack the slide to make the gun safe?
I'm no genius, but I never had to give this a moment's thought. It seems fairly logical that if your Glock is locked and loaded, you'd need to make the gun safe by removing the mag and clearing the chamber. Duh?
I'm surprised these people are able to get through a day without adult supervision.
I suppose they still need someone to tell them to look both ways when they cross the street.
Partisan Ranger
Member
I'd also like to say that a big problem is that many in the media automatically assume that the police are gun experts. And if they 'accidently' fire the Glock, then the Glock MUST be defective.
Uh, no, these folks' brains are defective. I'll take my Glock sans safety.
Uh, no, these folks' brains are defective. I'll take my Glock sans safety.
The analysis of Glock accidents is confounded by the number of departments using Glocks. As far as I know there is not a good analysis of Glocks vs other handguns. There are certainly accidents with them.
The analyses are also confounded by some large departments having really crappy training with their guns. The Washington DC gun accidents were clearly due to the quality of folks they had.
In fact, I just listened to some high end trainers (John Farnham, IIRC) saying that decocker guns are on the way out as manipulating those led to many NDs.
Many of these 'experts' have little real training on ergonomics or industrial errors, research design, etc. They are gun yahoos who make a buck in a lawsuit.
The analyses are also confounded by some large departments having really crappy training with their guns. The Washington DC gun accidents were clearly due to the quality of folks they had.
In fact, I just listened to some high end trainers (John Farnham, IIRC) saying that decocker guns are on the way out as manipulating those led to many NDs.
Many of these 'experts' have little real training on ergonomics or industrial errors, research design, etc. They are gun yahoos who make a buck in a lawsuit.
Maybe I'm more cautious but loaded guns make me nervous. If I have a round chambered or cylinder loaded, my gun is in a snap holster on my body. If the gun is not in the holster, I am either shooting it or unloading it safely. AD's happen when people become complacent, and lose their respect for what guns can do, not because of gun design.
Could we be missing the point here?
A pistol is just a product offered to the public for use, and like any product it could be a good or a bad design. It could be designed to take into account it will be used by human beings prone to error.
Take a car for example. I think it would look cool to have a 6 inch sharpend spike in the middle of all steering wheels. If I don't make a mistake and have a accident or a negligent incident whats the harm?
Well the harm comes in that design does not take into account the fact that the car will be driven by a human being prone to error.
Glocks and other pistols/ revolvers with out a manual safety that COULD if used prevent a negligent discharge may not be as safe as guns with a manual safety.
I like Glocks and revolvers. ( Hell I like all guns) I own them and shoot them.
But just like owning a fire extingusiher and wearing my seat I prefer to when ever possible to add a extra layer of safety between me a a horrible incident.
I like firearms with manual safetys better and will always use them when they are present.
A pistol is just a product offered to the public for use, and like any product it could be a good or a bad design. It could be designed to take into account it will be used by human beings prone to error.
Take a car for example. I think it would look cool to have a 6 inch sharpend spike in the middle of all steering wheels. If I don't make a mistake and have a accident or a negligent incident whats the harm?
Well the harm comes in that design does not take into account the fact that the car will be driven by a human being prone to error.
Glocks and other pistols/ revolvers with out a manual safety that COULD if used prevent a negligent discharge may not be as safe as guns with a manual safety.
I like Glocks and revolvers. ( Hell I like all guns) I own them and shoot them.
But just like owning a fire extingusiher and wearing my seat I prefer to when ever possible to add a extra layer of safety between me a a horrible incident.
I like firearms with manual safetys better and will always use them when they are present.
Amish_Bill
Member
With all due respect, when you learn to drive a car, you learn to come to a complete stop before putting it in park. You learn to slow down for sharp turns and stop for obstructions in the road. These are the basic rules inherent in driving a car. If you violate them, bad things will happen. Maybe not every time, but eventually your luck will run out.
I see operating a gun as a paralel to operating a car, chainsaw, pocket knife, crowbar, McDonald's Coffe Cup, or other dangerous machinery. If you operate them wrong, they will bite!
I see operating a gun as a paralel to operating a car, chainsaw, pocket knife, crowbar, McDonald's Coffe Cup, or other dangerous machinery. If you operate them wrong, they will bite!
There's a happy medium here. I agree that proper training and practice is essential and there is no substitute for that.
On the other hand, Bigjim has a point. Why make something that you know a lot of people will get into trouble with? In the old old days (before my time as it happens) some cars were made with push button transmissions. Great idea. Unfortunately it was just too easy to hit the wrong button when you were moving around. Sure, no one should be moving around the front seat but people do it anyway so it was a bad idea. I dont know whether the Glock is inadequate or has more ADs than any other gun on a per capita basis. But it might be.
On the other hand, Bigjim has a point. Why make something that you know a lot of people will get into trouble with? In the old old days (before my time as it happens) some cars were made with push button transmissions. Great idea. Unfortunately it was just too easy to hit the wrong button when you were moving around. Sure, no one should be moving around the front seat but people do it anyway so it was a bad idea. I dont know whether the Glock is inadequate or has more ADs than any other gun on a per capita basis. But it might be.
I'll go out on a limb here and say that all modern gun designs don't fire unless you pull the trigger. Sure there have been freakish accidents where the hammer drop lever fired the gun, but this only happens on broken guns.
As far as easier to ND, design wise, I don't buy it. Keep your finger off the trigger, and you won't have a problem. If someone can't manage that, no amount of design work can save them.
As far as easier to ND, design wise, I don't buy it. Keep your finger off the trigger, and you won't have a problem. If someone can't manage that, no amount of design work can save them.
carpettbaggerr
Member
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If there was a 6 inch spike in the middle of your steering wheel, you'd be a lot more careful when driving, no?
Eeeez gon, eeezz not safe. Keep that in mind and you won't have any problems.
bountyhunter
member
NOPE. There actually was car back in the 50's where they but a decorative "cone" shaped thing on the center of the wheel. A lot of people got impaled in accidents and they got rid of it. They showed one of the cars on Autoweek and it was absolutely bizarre that a car maker would do such a thing.... but, you should never underestimate the stupidity of some people.
Cellar Dweller
Member
Now where could they have gotten that idea? "I, um, dropped it, that's it, 'cause I'm an expert, see I dropped the clip, I mean magazine, and it just went off..."
Cominolli, while trying to move his product, at least is honest about "operator error" and "brain fade" and "unintentional (negligent)" as opposed to "accidental" discharge.
Revolvers don't have manual safeties or cylinder safeties...seems like there were NDs back in the day too...Glock might have invented the kB but not the ND
Chip Dixon
Member
Unloading accidents
I've noticed that in the 'accidents' listed, it's because of screwing up the unloading process. I've seen this happen before myself. (I've never done it myself, but seen it happen right in front of me)
My question is, why do people have a habit of unloading their guns every day? I can't remember the last time I unloaded my 2 go-to guns. (without the ammo going downrange) I don't keep guns in storage loaded, but my bedside revolver and carry 1911 are always loaded. Maybe the departments should just train these guys to keep their gun in an enclosed holster when not in use, still loaded, instead of always going through an unloading ritual. It would still be ready to rock if the SHTF, and NDs would drop as people no longer have to remember to use their brain when taking their gun off for the night. There would be less chance of bullet setback and getting suited up in the morning would be quicker.
Of course, there's always those worried types that won't even carry a cocked 1911 around with them.. who couldn't get to sleep knowing there's a loaded gun in the house, but I think for everybody else it would make sound practice.
As for people having NDs while holstering/unholstering.. that's inexcusable. That's what a trigger guard is for -- never should your fingers wander inside there until you have your muzzle pointed at something you're willing to destroy.
I've noticed that in the 'accidents' listed, it's because of screwing up the unloading process. I've seen this happen before myself. (I've never done it myself, but seen it happen right in front of me)
My question is, why do people have a habit of unloading their guns every day? I can't remember the last time I unloaded my 2 go-to guns. (without the ammo going downrange) I don't keep guns in storage loaded, but my bedside revolver and carry 1911 are always loaded. Maybe the departments should just train these guys to keep their gun in an enclosed holster when not in use, still loaded, instead of always going through an unloading ritual. It would still be ready to rock if the SHTF, and NDs would drop as people no longer have to remember to use their brain when taking their gun off for the night. There would be less chance of bullet setback and getting suited up in the morning would be quicker.
Of course, there's always those worried types that won't even carry a cocked 1911 around with them.. who couldn't get to sleep knowing there's a loaded gun in the house, but I think for everybody else it would make sound practice.
As for people having NDs while holstering/unholstering.. that's inexcusable. That's what a trigger guard is for -- never should your fingers wander inside there until you have your muzzle pointed at something you're willing to destroy.
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