Explain the AR platform to me.

[RussellC]

I'm not trying to strike up an argument, but it seems you are set in your ways which is fine. But objectivity is a great thing to have when dealing with ideals/ideas different from ourselves. The terms you use "plastic fantastic" just points to someone who grew up in an era and hasn't left it (and I'm not trying to be rude or demeaning here, I can be the same way with electronic technology and how people are so tied to needing it these days). The younger generation (and I'm closer to them then you most likely) could point to your beautiful walnut and steel and wonder why even bother with taking a 2x4 and whittling it down to a stock and attaching a barrel that will rust if left in the rain?

There's somewhere in between, and it's objectivity when it comes to technological advances.

Polymers ("plastic fantastic") have revolutionized firearms to a degree (I've seen lots of cracked frames on "old iron", bet that doesn't happen as often with polymer framed handguns and if it does it usually is an easy replacement), that doesn't mean old iron doesn't have it's place. And, I do have an affinity towards classic firearms but I think like @cheygriz points out, this debate happens every generation shift.

As "The Duke" said, "times change and a man's got to change with them."

Russellc

 

[Stevie-Ray]

stop being bitter and get educated. the AR is vastly more ergonomic than an AUG. If the AUG was more ergonomic, you'd see them winning matches. Instead, you almost never see them at matches, or any bullpup for that matter. Shooting from opposite shoulder should be a necessity for everyone. Ergonomic isn't just having lefty friendly controls (which bullpups (including the tavor) suck at because they eject hot brass into your face when you switch shoulders) but how many movements it takes to accomplish a task. go watch youtube videos of people reloading AUGs. Tavor isn't too bad, but it's definitely worse/slower than an AR. I'd like to see the immediate action drills for the AUG or Tavor. Many lifetimes of experience have gone into developing the malfunction clearing drills for AR15s that people like the late great Pat Rogers taught. It's hard to overemphasize the importance of that. There is no equivalent of that for the AUG or tavor. I love the idea of bullpups, but none of the ones I've owned have actually improved anything but OAL.

RDB. Ambidextrous and drops brass at your feet.

 

[ColoradoMinuteMan]

I get it, it’s a discussion forum, so let’s create discussion for the sake of discussion however, how can this possibly be a mystery for anyone?

Let me ask you: why not? Why is it confusing to anyone that one of the most reliable, most adaptable, most natively accurate, most affordable to purchase, most affordable to shoot, easiest to maintain, easiest to optic, easiest to assemblle and most ergonomic semi-automatic firearm platform ever built is somehow popular? It is a close relative to the most prolific rifle platform in the history of the United States Military, and we have millions of men and women who come out of service being familiar with it. How can it’s popularity be equated to a cult following? I mean come on, a fan club for Colt 1903 as a primary defense weapon is a cult following. It isn’t meant as any offense to anyone who loves a Colt 1903, they are beautiful weapons, but it is by no means a common, highly affordable, highly supported or uses a highly desireable defense cartridge.

Of course, like all of these “why AR” threads, it starts out with the “oh gee-whiz, I’m just curious as your opinion on why they are popular, it a big mystery to me,” and then the true nature of what is driving the conversation comes out it comments like [paraprasing] “they’re good for people who are wannabe gunsmiths and who aren’t manly enough to train their wife to let them have more than one gun.”

Again, we get it, you don’t like them, they are only for wimps and internet commandos, and we’re all dumbly following in lockstep with the coolaide serving cult leaders have told us we should do. There is really no good practical reason why anyone would like them, especially not real men who prefer steel and wood. We should all be shipped off to Fudd reeducation camp so we can watch Haratri, Winchester 76 and read Teddy Roosevelt quotes until we have dreams of nickleplated scrolled steel receivers, high gloss English walnut gunstocks, plaid wool hunting jackets, and corduroy guide hats.

Well perhaps not.....really it reminds me of the saying.

This really goes with the explain the Ruger #1 thread only another way....I think I might feel the same way about the AR as the #1 guy feels about the #1....I really don't get it. Yea you can make it anything you want it really is like that meme says...it is the barbie doll for men.

I own an, yes just one AR, and I bought it back the first time around when they said that they are going to take it away from us. It is also just like it was when it came out of the box all those years ago. And you know in the 80's 90's I shot it quite a bit....did matches with it, plinked with it....shooting a souped up 22 is kinda fun.....then I am not sure what happened, but it became a cult gun and the last time mine was out of the safe was when my son shot it at a cmp match about 7-8 years ago. I still shoot and load for 223 just shoot it out of a bolt gun.

So troll why did you start this tread....well I was reading the explain Ruger #1 thread and the 45-70 thread (something that I own each of) and in the 45-70 thread there is a post of a...guess I will say replacement....for the 45-70 that you can shoot out of an AR platform....really....sorry guys but I see that as really stupid.

Ok I get because of laws or personal finances you may only own, have space for, wife will only "allow" one gun, (get to training that wife if this is the case) and I get that.

But past that, why are people so married to the AR platform....I just do not get it. Some guns are a work of art, fantastic wood and blue can make them just....well art. Ever see wood on an AR....nothing looks more out of place...and really ugly....ever see a case hardened parts on an AR...same deal, just looks stupid.

Perhaps it is the same reason people love plastic....yes PLASTIC hand guns, (yea I hate those as well and will never personally own one) it is a tool....but you know, my 1903 Colt is a tool, and it has never ever failed me and I would and do trust my life to it going bang....sure it is old and a little more heavy, but it does have something new plastic fantastic guns will never have class. Look at a fine 03 springfield, #1, even modern CZ bolt guns or....you pick.

Really the only reason I think the platform is so popular is two reasons....a little like the 10/22 it allows people to play pretend gunsmith and screw one together and chances are they will not blow themselves up, and it is the tacticool factor.

 

[someguy2800]

I get it, it’s a discussion forum, so let’s create discussion for the sake of discussion however, how can this possibly be a mystery for anyone?

Let me ask you: why not? Why is it confusing to anyone that one of the most reliable, most adaptable, most natively accurate, most affordable to purchase, most affordable to shoot, easiest to maintain, easiest to optic, easiest to assemblle and most ergonomic semi-automatic firearm platform ever built is somehow popular? It is a close relative to the most prolific rifle platform in the history of the United States Military, and we have millions of men and women who come out of service being familiar with it. How can it’s popularity be equated to a cult following? I mean come on, a fan club for Colt 1903 as a primary defense weapon is a cult following. It isn’t meant as any offense to anyone who loves a Colt 1903, they are beautiful weapons, but it is by no means a common, highly affordable, highly supported or uses a highly desireable defense cartridge.

Of course, like all of these “why AR” threads, it starts out with the “oh gee-whiz, I’m just curious as your opinion on why they are popular, it a big mystery to me,” and then the true nature of what is driving the conversation comes out it comments like [paraprasing] “they’re good for people who are wannabe gunsmiths and who aren’t manly enough to train their wife to let them have more than one gun.”

Again, we get it, you don’t like them, they are only for wimps and internet commandos, and we’re all dumbly following in lockstep with the coolaide serving cult leaders have told us we should do. There is really no good practical reason why anyone would like them, especially not real men who prefer steel and wood. We should all be shipped off to Fudd reeducation camp so we can watch Haratri, Winchester 76 and read Teddy Roosevelt quotes until we have dreams of nickleplated scrolled steel receivers, high gloss English walnut gunstocks, plaid wool hunting jackets, and corduroy guide hats.

Yeah that.

 

[entropy]

so we can watch Haratri, Winchester 76 and read Teddy Roosevelt quotes until we have dreams of nickleplated scrolled steel receivers, high gloss English walnut gunstocks, plaid wool hunting jackets, and corduroy guide hats.

Nothing wrong with any of that stuff, either.....

 

[someguy2800]

Nothing wrong with any of that stuff, either.....

Certainly. You can appreciate both too. 9 of my guns are older than me.

 

[ColoradoMinuteMan]

Nothing wrong with any of that stuff, either.....

Agreed, there is no firearm more attractive to me than a Beretta DT11 EELL and I’d love to own one, though I likely never will due to the cost and impracticality. For now I’ll stick with my Beretta A300 Synthetic. It puts birds in the freezer and turns clay pigeons into dust. I grew up around a father who collected surplus rifles so I have a huge appreciation for wood and steel. The first rifle he ever gave me was a mismatched 1917 arsenal rebuilt Springfield 1903. I still have and appreciate it, though I haven’t shot it in a decade. However, I’m less of a collector and more of practical user of firearms. I buy firearms with a purpose, most of the time. There is a lot of black in my safes. Polymer, hard anodization, nitride treatment, phosphorous treatment, etc. There is still some wood from the few firearms that have sentimental value for me such as the ones I was given in my youth and a handful of SKS that I’ve kept due to their practicality.

 

[taliv]

Lot of firearms that I think are awesome and most aesthetically pleasing are generally regarded as junk or at a minimum deeply flawed.

Eg
Amp Dsr-1
Cheytac
Ps90/p90
Hk ump

 

[ttarp]

Why specifically do you think they’re not ergonomic?

Not necessarily that they have poor ergonomics, thats not what I had meant to imply, but I had unwittingly formed some expectations due to hearing the ergonomics praised so much.

I have a weakness for the Hk roller rifles, one of the common complaints of those designs is the selector switch taking either gargantuan hands to reach, or having to shift your grip to reach it, and as it would happen, I have the same issue with AR's, not a big deal by any means, but not what I was expecting from all the talk either.

I think the AR is adequate in the ergo department, not phenomenal, the charging handle is poorly located, but other than that its ok. The AUG has all of its controls in easier to reach and more intuitive locations, and yes, it is a bit slower with mag changes, more so if you drop rather than retain your mags, otherwise its just easier to manipulate the controls.

Apparently bitterness was far too strong a word to use, I have an AR, and I'm not looking to get rid of it, in fact I'm probably going to throw some more money at it eventually to adjust it to me a bit, so I don't think I'm missing out on anything, but it really doesn't do anything for me that my other rifles don't already cover.

 

[rust collector]

I like what the AR has become. In the early years it was not affordable, reliable, adaptable or aesthetically pleasing. It will never be aesthetically pleasing to dinosaurs like me, but has matured into a very capable tool that can be adapted to many uses. I enjoy assembling, shooting and modifying to suit me. It'll never take the place of Mannlicher 1903 or a prewar model 70, but I'd rather keep those rifles out of the weather anyway.

 

[Coal Dragger]

Well perhaps not.....really it reminds me of the saying.

This really goes with the explain the Ruger #1 thread only another way....I think I might feel the same way about the AR as the #1 guy feels about the #1....I really don't get it. Yea you can make it anything you want it really is like that meme says...it is the barbie doll for men.

I own an, yes just one AR, and I bought it back the first time around when they said that they are going to take it away from us. It is also just like it was when it came out of the box all those years ago. And you know in the 80's 90's I shot it quite a bit....did matches with it, plinked with it....shooting a souped up 22 is kinda fun.....then I am not sure what happened, but it became a cult gun and the last time mine was out of the safe was when my son shot it at a cmp match about 7-8 years ago. I still shoot and load for 223 just shoot it out of a bolt gun.

So troll why did you start this tread....well I was reading the explain Ruger #1 thread and the 45-70 thread (something that I own each of) and in the 45-70 thread there is a post of a...guess I will say replacement....for the 45-70 that you can shoot out of an AR platform....really....sorry guys but I see that as really stupid.

Ok I get because of laws or personal finances you may only own, have space for, wife will only "allow" one gun, (get to training that wife if this is the case) and I get that.

But past that, why are people so married to the AR platform....I just do not get it. Some guns are a work of art, fantastic wood and blue can make them just....well art. Ever see wood on an AR....nothing looks more out of place...and really ugly....ever see a case hardened parts on an AR...same deal, just looks stupid.

Perhaps it is the same reason people love plastic....yes PLASTIC hand guns, (yea I hate those as well and will never personally own one) it is a tool....but you know, my 1903 Colt is a tool, and it has never ever failed me and I would and do trust my life to it going bang....sure it is old and a little more heavy, but it does have something new plastic fantastic guns will never have class. Look at a fine 03 springfield, #1, even modern CZ bolt guns or....you pick.

Really the only reason I think the platform is so popular is two reasons....a little like the 10/22 it allows people to play pretend gunsmith and screw one together and chances are they will not blow themselves up, and it is the tacticool factor.

Not that you seem interested in learning anything new, at least judging by your posts in this thread, I will still offer a suggestion:

If you want to understand the AR platform I suggest signing up for a carbine class, and getting some training on it. Keep in mind when I say “class” I don’t mean some basic entry level USMC boot camp rifle range drudgery. Not that I’m knocking USMC boot camp, did it once, no regrets.... but shooting a KD course and doing company level ranges in an infantry company really don’t constitute good training compared to what is actually out there. Those are dumbed down severely so that Pvt. Schmukatelli and his friend Pfc. Fornicationknuckles don’t hurt themselves or others.

So go sign up for a class with Pat McNamara, Mike Pannone, Larry Vickers, Travis Haley, Frank Proctor etc in your area. Look at the gear list, bring the appropriate gear, bring lots of ammo and magazines, show up to class, and learn to run the gun. You’ll have a good time, and probably learn a lot if you’re willing. Running all those drills, shooting on the move, and constantly manipulating the carbine should be an eye opener if you’ve not done it before.

If, at the end of a 2 day class beating on the AR and running it hard, and you still hate it then at least you’re coming to that conclusion from experience.

Otherwise you’re arriving at the same poorly considered opinion as the guy bad mouthing the Ruger Number 1 in the other thread.

 

[armoredman]

I never wanted an Ar after I shot an M16A1 in JROTC in 1984, with the Army Reserve unit we were "attached: to, and that SPRRRROOOOIIIINNNNGGGG in my ear drove me nuts. Hated it. I bought plenty of semi auto rifles over the years, AK, SKS, CETME,(worst choice ever), Mini-14, vz-58, and the vz-58 in 5.56mm. None of them used the same system, so no sproing. My baby is my BREN 805 which is so reliable it will reliably give decent groups even with cast bullets. Heavy, but reliable.
I wanted a lighter rifle for my dream of hunting Wile E Coyote at least ONCE before I croak. And that was when magic happened on another board and I, though weirdness and generosity, became the proud owner of the Trash Panda, an AR of pieces/parts.




The Cav Arms poly one piece lower catches some eyes. It also makes it VERY light.
It is not totally reliable yet, need a X die or small base dies to make sure my reloads work 100%. But, being built of all kids of stuff I didn't really expect it to be perfect. No worries, I can buy a new lower if I wasn't, since I have a complete upper. Not to mention, with a flat wire spring in that big plastic stock reduced the dreaded SPPPPRRRROOING t9 darn new nothing.
So now I am having fun getting it sighted in next weekend as a buddy gifted me an old cheap Barska scope for me to try out....nothing special but then again, if it works, why not.

 

[Charlie98]

the charging handle is poorly located,

That is not the charging handle... that is the place you put your nose to consistently replicate your shooting position. It just so happens to charge the rifle, too...

 

[someguy2800]

I personally hate the charging handle so all mine are right side charging uppers.

As for the sproing, if you put a little heavy grease on the spring before you put it in, it doesn’t make that noise.

 

[cheygriz]

I have two test of a weapon.
1. does it go "bang" every time I pull the trigger? EVERY TIME!

2. Do the bullets strike the aiming point??

If it passes these two, I don't care if it looks like a dog turd.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

That is not the charging handle... that is the place you put your nose to consistently replicate your shooting position. It just so happens to charge the rifle, too...

Hmmm.....kisser button on bows......so, sniffing button, maybe?

 

[jeepnik]

A really bad idea foisted onto the military by politicians. Then accepted by the weak minded as a good idea.

 

[GEM]

On that note, it's a close. Also, if your contribution is just an insult, you don't contribute.

Shot a carbine match a few weeks ago with a stock Olympic Arms from about the year 2000. Only mod was an Eotech I mounted on a goose neck rail that attached to the carry handle. I was first in terms of accuracy with only 3 points out of 50 ish shooters. Times not so hot - I'm a sedate FOG but with a weak mind.

Closed!