GigaBuist
Member
Well, the actions in NO confirm one of my tin-foil-hat feelings:
If you see FEMA run away.
If you see FEMA run away.
F. E. M. A.???
- Thread starter Aguila Blanca
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Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
A few point: This is the first time since the beginning of FEMA that the President declared a disaster before the disaster occurred. This gave legal enablement for pre-disaster staging of personnel and equipment.
FEMA is a coordinating entity, to try to create and/or maintain communication and information flow among the dozens of separate entities involved in disaster relief. That is one of the most important pieces of the puzzle, since it reduces wasted effort. The paper-pushing part of the effort is the check-writing to deal with the congressionally authorized recipients, whether those doing the work or those victims entitled to money. FEMA is not an action-agency in the sense of disaster-relief manpower. That part is the local folks, the out-of-area volunteers, the National Guard, etc.
From what I've seen on TV of the vast extent of damge, and comparing it with my own experiences with Hurricane Celia in 1970 (an Andrew-strength critter), the overal relief program is doing very well.
Art
FEMA is a coordinating entity, to try to create and/or maintain communication and information flow among the dozens of separate entities involved in disaster relief. That is one of the most important pieces of the puzzle, since it reduces wasted effort. The paper-pushing part of the effort is the check-writing to deal with the congressionally authorized recipients, whether those doing the work or those victims entitled to money. FEMA is not an action-agency in the sense of disaster-relief manpower. That part is the local folks, the out-of-area volunteers, the National Guard, etc.
From what I've seen on TV of the vast extent of damge, and comparing it with my own experiences with Hurricane Celia in 1970 (an Andrew-strength critter), the overal relief program is doing very well.
Art
(taking from another post)
As I understand it FEMA rolls in with some equipment and a big checkbook to supplement local emergency response, but local officials are supposed to stay in charge. Look at NYC on 9-11, Rudolph Giuliani was in charge, not FEMA, and everybody knew it. NYPD and FDNY were front and center. I don't see that in NOLA. As I understand it, the Mayor is sleeping in Baton Rouge, he isn't even in town. Doesn't NOLA have an emergency response center? Never mind, rhetorical question.
The same incompetent bureaucrats that left those buses to waste away in the flood water (see Michelle Malkin.com are supposed to play Rudy's part in this tragedy. Rudy's job started as a total surprise, these guys have had years to prepare for the "Big One" and they totally blew it. This is on the local folks in NOLA.
As I understand it FEMA rolls in with some equipment and a big checkbook to supplement local emergency response, but local officials are supposed to stay in charge. Look at NYC on 9-11, Rudolph Giuliani was in charge, not FEMA, and everybody knew it. NYPD and FDNY were front and center. I don't see that in NOLA. As I understand it, the Mayor is sleeping in Baton Rouge, he isn't even in town. Doesn't NOLA have an emergency response center? Never mind, rhetorical question.
The same incompetent bureaucrats that left those buses to waste away in the flood water (see Michelle Malkin.com are supposed to play Rudy's part in this tragedy. Rudy's job started as a total surprise, these guys have had years to prepare for the "Big One" and they totally blew it. This is on the local folks in NOLA.
JohnBT
Member
Thank you Art. It's about establishing and maintaining communication and management.
Now, about this statement:
"THose flooded buses- are just one example of what FEMA should have been there sooner to move to high ground before the flooding."
You just don't get how FEMA fits into the overall scheme of things. Those are New Orleans' buses. The mayor of NO called for an evacuation of the city and didn't bother to use his own buses. He didn't even have them moved out of the city for later use. FEMA isn't in charge of going door to door and making people think - even mayors and governors. They aren't 'first responders' and they certainly aren't in charge of bossing around the elected officials.
FEMA's primary responsibility has been to ensure the continuance of the federal government in case of national disaster such as a nuclear attack - or maybe a local disaster if it affects D.C. and the federal government. That's why some of their facilities are underground. Google up Mr. Weather in Virginia.
John
Now, about this statement:
"THose flooded buses- are just one example of what FEMA should have been there sooner to move to high ground before the flooding."
You just don't get how FEMA fits into the overall scheme of things. Those are New Orleans' buses. The mayor of NO called for an evacuation of the city and didn't bother to use his own buses. He didn't even have them moved out of the city for later use. FEMA isn't in charge of going door to door and making people think - even mayors and governors. They aren't 'first responders' and they certainly aren't in charge of bossing around the elected officials.
FEMA's primary responsibility has been to ensure the continuance of the federal government in case of national disaster such as a nuclear attack - or maybe a local disaster if it affects D.C. and the federal government. That's why some of their facilities are underground. Google up Mr. Weather in Virginia.
John
FEMA FEMA FEMA...
As Art pointed out GWB took a leadership role in this.
Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a news conference, said President Bush called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding.
This is what was supposed to happen;
http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26
It didn't.
The city of Nooawlins is a festering stink hole of crime and depravity on a good day when the sun is shining.
Look how fast the looting started after the hurricane passed and BEFORE the levee broke.
The Feds take your money to support their incumbent reelection programs and socialist income redistribution plans (as per FDR); NOT to protect your azz when the shizz goes down.
For solely CYA and political reasons the gvt and populace of Nooawlins and LA is blaming the Feds.
As I stated on another thread this is the legacy of Huey Long.
When you make almost the entire populace of a city wards of the state then don't expect altruism and intelligence.
Expect zombies man!
Ironically GWB and Texas come out as the heros in this but will never get the credit.
G
As Art pointed out GWB took a leadership role in this.
Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a news conference, said President Bush called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding.
This is what was supposed to happen;
http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26
It didn't.
The city of Nooawlins is a festering stink hole of crime and depravity on a good day when the sun is shining.
Look how fast the looting started after the hurricane passed and BEFORE the levee broke.
The Feds take your money to support their incumbent reelection programs and socialist income redistribution plans (as per FDR); NOT to protect your azz when the shizz goes down.
For solely CYA and political reasons the gvt and populace of Nooawlins and LA is blaming the Feds.
As I stated on another thread this is the legacy of Huey Long.
When you make almost the entire populace of a city wards of the state then don't expect altruism and intelligence.
Expect zombies man!
Ironically GWB and Texas come out as the heros in this but will never get the credit.
G
State of LA Evac Plan page II-2 para 5. Didn't follow their own plan.
carebear
Member
Yep, the locals are supposed to establish Incident Command Teams, organize their local paid and volunteer crews, take charge of the resources they have pre-staged (often purchased through FEMA grants mind you) and implement the appropriate prewritten emergency response plan (created using formats created by and paid for through FEMA grants).
If the incident proves larger than a particular local area, the next larger emergency management team is assembled, they look at the larger pool of manpower and equipment (paid for in part through FEMA grants) under their purview and put THEIR emergency response plans (developed using FEMA grants) into action. If they need more resources, manpower, equipment and funding they apply to....
The NEXT larger emergency response agency. Which of course has plans and resource lists developed and partly paid for with FEMA grants.
FEMA itself only goes into action during regional disasters that exceed any particular state's ability to handle, and it really only coordinates the various regional resources it has identified and coordinates assistance from other states emergency management agencies.
They really aren't a "response" agency. They train, they assist in planning and they FUND. If the locals (city, county, state) are incompetent and fall down on the job in the first few days there's nothing FEMA can do. And coming in after the fact, with the resources they planned on having available and ORGANIZED by the locals not in order is asking beyond what they are designed to do.
People blaming FEMA are either absolutely ignorant and should keep their frikkin' mouths shut or they know better and are trying to evade responsibility for their own incompetance and guilt.
If the incident proves larger than a particular local area, the next larger emergency management team is assembled, they look at the larger pool of manpower and equipment (paid for in part through FEMA grants) under their purview and put THEIR emergency response plans (developed using FEMA grants) into action. If they need more resources, manpower, equipment and funding they apply to....
The NEXT larger emergency response agency. Which of course has plans and resource lists developed and partly paid for with FEMA grants.
FEMA itself only goes into action during regional disasters that exceed any particular state's ability to handle, and it really only coordinates the various regional resources it has identified and coordinates assistance from other states emergency management agencies.
They really aren't a "response" agency. They train, they assist in planning and they FUND. If the locals (city, county, state) are incompetent and fall down on the job in the first few days there's nothing FEMA can do. And coming in after the fact, with the resources they planned on having available and ORGANIZED by the locals not in order is asking beyond what they are designed to do.
People blaming FEMA are either absolutely ignorant and should keep their frikkin' mouths shut or they know better and are trying to evade responsibility for their own incompetance and guilt.
Aguila Blanca
Member
DING!
Give that man a twinkie and move him to the head of the class.
Only correction I would offer to the above is a very short sentence appended at the conclusion: "Or both."
FEMA is a "pull" logistics agency--they've got the supplies, but you (individual, local, state) have to ask for it. Its operating assumption is that it will initially support, then (if required) supplant the already-existing local/state chain-of-command. Absent any local leadership, as we have here, the agency operates blind and on the edges of the problem. Since it is a collection of individuals and teams, it has an enormous problem creating its own command and control structure. That's why it's important to deploy the regular military early--not for relief, security, or day labor; but for it's radios and already-existing chain of command. Military units from every branch of the service are trained to quickly attach themselves to each other in ever more complex formations. With that in place, all of these relief individuals and teams have a means of gathering information and deploying resources. As an example, Special Ops teams are trained to operate in austere conditions, can go at a moment's notice, and have great communications skills. Early responders, if you will. Build on them as Headquarters units come up on the net. The information begins to flow. The local and state officials have a structure to which they can attach themselves to, get their heads back on straight, and begin to reassure themselves and their populous. Confidence can be infectious. And FEMA has a chance to do better than, "Gosh, we didn't know so many people were at the convention center." Most important, the people have a visible example that they've not been forgotten. Hope counts for a lot in these situations. Essentially, with an A-Detachment in your presence, you know your country cares enough to send the very best.
JohnBT
Member
"Absent any local leadership, as we have here, the agency operates blind and on the edges of the problem."
Trouble is, it appears to me that the local leadership was talking a good game for a day or two and not really accomplishing much in the way of results or even collecting reliable info. Yup, they were unprepared and then moved directly into panic and blame mode. It took quite some time for their deception to be discovered. IMO, YMMV.
John
Trouble is, it appears to me that the local leadership was talking a good game for a day or two and not really accomplishing much in the way of results or even collecting reliable info. Yup, they were unprepared and then moved directly into panic and blame mode. It took quite some time for their deception to be discovered. IMO, YMMV.
John
Wow. Here's summary of FEMA powers taken from wikipedia:
Here are some of the actions FEMA can take in emergency situations, as authorized by Presidential executive orders:
* allows the government to take over all modes of transportation and control of highways and seaports.
* allows the government to seize and control the communication media.
* allows the government to take over all electrical power, gas, petroleum, fuels and minerals.
* allows the government to take over all food resources and farms.
* allows the government to mobilize civilians into work brigades under government supervision.
* allows the government to take over all health, education and welfare functions.
* allows to designates the Postmaster General to operate a national registration of all persons.
* allows the government to take over all airports and aircraft, including commercial aircraft.
* allows the Housing and Finance Authority to relocate communities, build new housing with public funds, designate areas to be abandoned if contaminated beyond reasonable means of decontamination, and establish new locations for populations.
* allows the government to take over railroads, inland waterways and public storage facilities.
* allows them to specify the responsibility of the Office of Emergency Planning and gives authorization to put all Executive Orders into effect in times of increased international tensions and economic or financial crisis.
* allows them to grant authority to the Department of Justice to enforce the plans set out in Executive Orders, to institute industrial support, to establish judicial and legislative liaison, to control all aliens, to operate penal and correctional institutions, and to advise and assist the President.
* allows them to assign emergency preparedness function to federal departments and agencies, consolidating 21 operative Executive Orders issued over a fifteen year period.
* allows the Federal Emergency Preparedness Agency to develop plans to establish control over the mechanisms of production and distribution, of energy sources, wages, salaries, credit and the flow of money in U.S. financial institution in any undefined national emergency. It also provides that when a state of emergency is declared by the President, Congress cannot review the action for six months. The Federal Emergency Management Agency has broad powers in every aspect of the nation.
And here I thought they just handed out checks...
Here are some of the actions FEMA can take in emergency situations, as authorized by Presidential executive orders:
* allows the government to take over all modes of transportation and control of highways and seaports.
* allows the government to seize and control the communication media.
* allows the government to take over all electrical power, gas, petroleum, fuels and minerals.
* allows the government to take over all food resources and farms.
* allows the government to mobilize civilians into work brigades under government supervision.
* allows the government to take over all health, education and welfare functions.
* allows to designates the Postmaster General to operate a national registration of all persons.
* allows the government to take over all airports and aircraft, including commercial aircraft.
* allows the Housing and Finance Authority to relocate communities, build new housing with public funds, designate areas to be abandoned if contaminated beyond reasonable means of decontamination, and establish new locations for populations.
* allows the government to take over railroads, inland waterways and public storage facilities.
* allows them to specify the responsibility of the Office of Emergency Planning and gives authorization to put all Executive Orders into effect in times of increased international tensions and economic or financial crisis.
* allows them to grant authority to the Department of Justice to enforce the plans set out in Executive Orders, to institute industrial support, to establish judicial and legislative liaison, to control all aliens, to operate penal and correctional institutions, and to advise and assist the President.
* allows them to assign emergency preparedness function to federal departments and agencies, consolidating 21 operative Executive Orders issued over a fifteen year period.
* allows the Federal Emergency Preparedness Agency to develop plans to establish control over the mechanisms of production and distribution, of energy sources, wages, salaries, credit and the flow of money in U.S. financial institution in any undefined national emergency. It also provides that when a state of emergency is declared by the President, Congress cannot review the action for six months. The Federal Emergency Management Agency has broad powers in every aspect of the nation.
And here I thought they just handed out checks...
I think those powers were from before the reorg when they were an independent agency and the Director was near cabinet level.. Now they are just part of the Department of Homeland Security. FEMA history
toivo
Member
I saw another Shepard Smith report from that same location later the same day. He said people who tried to walk out were stopped at roadblocks and turned back. There's no excuse for that. If the gov't won't help you, they at least have to let you help yourself.
Believe me, people in the projects aren't big believers that the government gives a cr*p about them.
spartacus2002
Member
I was hoping Geraldo would get fed up and personally lead all 30K people at the convention center thru the roadblock himself. The roadblock crew could turn back one or two people, but not 100 at a time or 30K.
I'm serious; he was so distraught at one point (either THurs or Fri) that I wouldn't have been surprised (he is rather unconventional*)
*please add this as an entry to the "THR understatement of the year" contest.
I'm serious; he was so distraught at one point (either THurs or Fri) that I wouldn't have been surprised (he is rather unconventional*)
*please add this as an entry to the "THR understatement of the year" contest.
carebear
Member
insurgent,
They have the authority to assist in doing those things, the actual doing is done by other agencies with the applicable skills and manpower. FCC, FBI, DNR, ICC, USCG, Customs, etc. All the alphabet agencies.
FEMA comes up with the "how" and advises on the "when". FEMA coordinates.
The check writing goes on between FEMA and the state, county and city emergency management agencies.
They have the authority to assist in doing those things, the actual doing is done by other agencies with the applicable skills and manpower. FCC, FBI, DNR, ICC, USCG, Customs, etc. All the alphabet agencies.
FEMA comes up with the "how" and advises on the "when". FEMA coordinates.
The check writing goes on between FEMA and the state, county and city emergency management agencies.
280PLUS
Member
I haven't read through all this and I don't have the time but I wanted to mention that this morning I attempted to register as a heating and air conditioning contractor with FEMA on line. Step after excruciating and unclear step through the registry process page after page, going other places to get other registry numbers going back repeatedly to try and figure out what minor error in format I had made hyphens slashes alpha "O" vs numeric "O" (that was a tough one) After all that I get to a page that wants bank routing numbers and crap I just can't get on a Sunday morning and now I'm stuck. Can't save it, nothing, the whole thing and a good 1/2 hour + GONE. Now, in order for me to try again I have to go back to square one and battle my way back throught the whole 
process.
There's FEMA in action for you.
Those people don't need anybody to fix their air conditioners and refrigerators right away now, do they? 
process.There's FEMA in action for you.
Those people don't need anybody to fix their air conditioners and refrigerators right away now, do they? 280PLUS
Member
Thanx for the info, that part I knew, but they were asking me for my bank's clearing house # and for that I'd have to call the bank. Then who knows what surprises lie ahead of THAT hurdle. I'm not prepared top go right now FYI, I have several medium sized projects in progress that I need to complete but I do see being availabe once I wrap them up. There's years worth of work to be done down there. If I wasn't under contract(s) I'd pack my van and just head in the general direction until I hit the first signs of destruction, but it's not possible for me to do that at this time.
Desertdog
Member
I believe the clearing house # is in the upper right corner. It is the number you put on your deposit slip when you make it out.
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