Failed Home Invasion act 2

[MikeG]

A couple of days ago, I posted a story about a home invasion where a resident defended his household.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=333317

There's been a new event in the case, where someone, perhaps one of the suspects, apparently retaliated.


http://www.gazette.com/articles/police_32326___article.html/shot_elugardo.html

"Police investigate drive-by shooting at site of recent burglary
Comments 22| Recommend 4
THE GAZETTE
January 24, 2008 - 11:32AM


Fountain police are investigating a drive-by shooting early today at the home where a resident earlier this week shot two masked intruders.

Police took Jorge Elugardo into custody and were speaking to him about today’s shooting, Fountain police spokesman Sgt. Jess Freeman said. Elugardo, 27, was arrested Tuesday in connection with the burglary at the same house late Sunday.

Elugardo was shot during the alleged burglary by an occupant of the house, Freeman said. He was arrested after he sought treatment for his wounds; he was released on bond Wednesday, Freeman said.

Another suspect arrested in connection with the robbery, 23-year-old Brian Kennedy, was shot in the right arm. He remains in jail, Freeman said.

Police put out a call today for Elugardo after someone shot out the windows of a Ford Explorer and shot a truck parked in the driveway of the home, police said.

Witnesses reported that a late-’80s silver Toyota Corolla left the area immediately after the shooting.

Four people were asleep inside the home at the time of the shooting.

Police say Kennedy and Elugardo were shot late Sunday by Cody Buckler, 19, who opened fire with a shotgun on two masked intruders inside the house on Fountain Mesa Road.

Both are accused of first-degree burglary, menacing and theft, Freeman said.

Kennedy doesn’t have a criminal record in Colorado, court records show. Elugardo has been arrested many times, court records show, with at least one conviction for misdemeanor assault.

Both intruders were armed with semiautomatic handguns, Fountain police said"

It's a shame that in real life, the story doesn't end at a nice logical place so the credits can roll and the end theme can be played. Sometimes it isn't over until both sides say it is.

 

[Corporal K]

I suppose it's a reminder to "do what you have to do" if you have a home invasion.

 

[Fred Fuller]

I suppose it's a reminder to "do what you have to do" if you have a home invasion

I'm not sure what's intended there, but if it means anything other than to conduct yourself in a manner compliant with the self defense laws of your jurisdiction, it's a genuinely bad idea.

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster."

lpl/nc

 

[Corporal K]

Of course, one should comply with all laws and here in Colorado, home-defense laws strongly favor the home-owner/resident.

Let me re-phrase - if I find two masked guys with guns in my home, and I can get to a weapon, they will likely be carried out as opposed to scurrying out with arses full of birdshot.

 

[RoadkingLarry]

Just a reminder of what an happen if one does not "use enough gun".

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Use Enough Law

Home invasion, and they were let back out on the street.

I'm not sure what the remedy is here.

Unhappily, the bad guys always have the "first move" advantage. One of the requirements of being a "good guy" is compliance with mores and laws. The bad guy knows this and thus knows that he effectively has "first strike" working for him. And good guys don't get to "retaliate."

I guess, once you've had to defend your home with force, you can't assume you're done -- especially if the perp is released on bond. Now you have increased vigilance as part of your daily routine.

Sucks, really.

But preemptive strikes are disallowed in a civilian setting, so increased vigilance is what you have left.

Pretty sure that, under those circumstances, my sleep schedule would suffer.

 

[ilbob]

amazing how an armed home invader is let out on bond.

 

[Cannonball888]

Even you kill the perp it doesn't mean his homies won't come after you. There was an article last year of a citizen in Florida who justfiably shot and killed a gangbanger driver who was trying to run him over. His home was later burned down most likely by gang members in retaliation.

 

[robert garner]

amazing?

Disgusting more likely; Like the families of drug abusers the courts are ENABLERS

They promote more crime than they punish criminals. Judges like criminals are not held responsible for their actions.
robert

 

[Browning]

ArfinGreebly : Home invasion, and they were let back out on the street.

I'm not sure what the remedy is here.

Perhaps by making sure that they're not going to bother you or any other law abiding citizen EVER again.

Either that or by lobbying your state government to deny bail to violent offenders who commit certain crimes.

If he had of centered his shotgun blast a little more in the center then he wouldn't have had to worry about either one of them. Shot placement's important for a couple of different reasons, in this case he was lucky and they just shot up the cars in front of the house, but what if one of those shots in the drive by had of hit his wife or daughter? He wouldn't have felt to good just wounding them then. Nobody wants to take someone elses life if it isn't necessary, but they made the decision to arm themselves and break into his home and just like two rabid dogs who are dangerous to everyone who comes into contact with them they needed to be put down.

Perhaps that was all the shot he could get into them the first time as maybe they were behind cover and/or shooting at him (the article doesn't say), but it's too bad when decent people have to move out of their own homes because the police can't keep criminals who've just shown their utter distain for the rules of society (just the night before no less) off the streets.

 

[Working Man]

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster."

Sentiment understood but sometimes it takes a monster to beat a devil.

Stay within the law as prudent but yes, use enough gun.
Even if you do, wing shots and misses can and do happen as well as the never
though I'd live to see that sorta stuff.

Sometimes people get caught between the law and the reality of the situation
with no good place to turn.

 

[distra]

Home invasion, and they were let back out on the street.

I'm not sure what the remedy is here.

After the Chesire CT home invasion where a Doctors family was killed by 2 cons on parole, the legislature is trying to inact several new laws such as the "3-strikes" law and reclassifying home invasion for stiffer penalties. My feeling is we need a nation wide castle doctrine like FL, TX and other states. The criminals have the upper hand in that you have the obligation to retreat.:banghead: The funny thing is the CT Dems don't like the "3-strikes" laws so I doubt it will make it through. Likewise, the shore line i.e. NYC suburbs, will prevent a castle doctrine.:banghead: All is fine until something goes wrong in their neighborhood...

 

[RossA]

I'm brand new to this site, and I don't want to offend a moderator as my first act, but I must respond to the "don't become a monster" idea.
If someone breaks into my home, and I choose to end the struggle decisively rather than leaving the struggle open for continuation at a later date, I hardly consider myself a monster.
On the other hand, if I choose to leave the conflict open for later resumption, thereby allowing my loved ones to perhaps become victims at a later date, that would truly be a monstrous act.
You may call me a monster, or whatever else you choose, but at least I will be alive to hear your voice.

 

[gym]

Those guys should have not been on the streets, that's our shxxy Legal system at work again, someone pleaded them down, and some other idiot ada let them post bail, your tax dolllars at work

 

[Apachedriver]

Thx wheelgunslinger, I didn't realize I hit enter, thought I hit cancel.

Deleted.

At the moment I can't explain my point without revealing some personal info that I choose not to reveal.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

HUH?

Apachedriver, did you just contradict yourself?

 

[Fred Fuller]

RossA,

Perhaps some clarification is in order, though it shouldn't be necessary in a perfect world or a perfect communications medium (both of which we lack, unfortunately).

I have trained with several nationally known trainers who required proof of good citizenship before they'd admit a student into their classes. In order to obtain my state CC permit, I had to submit a criminal background investigation that indicated a clean record. When I undertake to train a new shooter, I too make sure of that person's background. Good guys don't want to help bad guys be better at what they do.

The difference between bad guys and good guys is in their conduct and the mindset which drives it. Good guys don't do bad things, which is how they stay numbered among the good guys. Good guys don't cut corners or look for fuzzy definitions to explain themselves, their attitudes or their conduct.

Good guys establish standards of conduct like the one at http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2007/02_StudyDay.htm , and then do their best to live by those standards.

Sometimes bad guys force good guys to hurt them. That's unfortunate, but it happens- and it is MUCH to be preferred to the alternative, which is bad guys hurting good guys. Sometimes bad guys get killed in the process of being stopped by good guys from whatever bad thing they're doing. Again, that is unfortunate- but it is nevertheless an outcome to be preferred to the alternative.

But being a moral arbiter, as Skip Gochenour describes it in the above link, DOES NOT mean that one can appoint themselves judge, jury and executioner- and still be numbered among the good guys.

So what does "do what you have to do" really mean? Obviously, it means different things to different people. If it means shooting buckshot instead of birdshot in a defensive shotgun, so be it. If it means shooting to center mass instead of "shooting to wound," so be it.

But if it means stepping up and putting in "an insurance round" to make sure a downed intruder doesn't get up... that's a different sort of thing completely. That crosses the line- in fact it crosses several lines.

And that sort of suggestion is not going to pass muster here.

Clear?

lpl/nc

 

[TEDDY]

Self Defence

Distra:check out you state law.the Mass shooting yrs ago was full of media hipe.now where in mass law did it say you had to retreat.the castle laws are to prevent DAs from bringing charges against the victim.the Idea is to frighten the home owner from protecting himself.to have job security for police and DA.no live perps no case no job.many victims had to fight the DAs to stay free even when innocent.we must take back our rights to defend ourselves.and make the rep understand they work for us. ----------:banghead:---
hesitating can get you killed.

 

[hrgrisso]

WOW-Shoot to Kill

Maybe I need more caffeine today. That last post Lee changed the whole situation. I know everything we do and say is open to personal interp. but when the line "do what you have to do" was used, I interpreted that fight harder and more furiously than the other guy.

When I got my CCW here in Az our instructor explained (LEA Trainer for Pima County), and I've followed it through to legal counsel, shooting to wound doesn't pass legal muster in Az. If you have time to plan to shoot to wound you aren't in fear for your life, which means you don't have the legal authority to use lethal force, even if it's to wound.

As the laws here are so different I usually just browse the conversations.

But the comment about offering up a Coup De Gras!?

wow, didn't see that even being part of the conversation. Takes on a whole new suggestion...

 

[Gordon]

I would NEVER shoot unless legally warrented,however once I fire on "two guys armed with semi autos" inside my house it is VERY unlikely they are gonna do a drive by anytime soon.I have been in fire fights and the 'pump' gets you shooting until threating moving stops. I 'run the bolt' on an 870 these days so that 2 attackers would prolly be down with 4 shell (AT least 00 and prolly slugs) caseing in the air! The Tuller drill is my favorite!

 

[CountGlockula]

If you have time to plan to shoot to wound you aren't in fear for your life,...

Interesting.

 

[distra]

Distra:check out you state law.the Mass shooting yrs ago was full of media hipe.now where in mass law did it say you had to retreat.the castle laws are to prevent DAs from bringing charges against the victim.the Idea is to frighten the home owner from protecting himself.to have job security for police and DA.no live perps no case no job.many victims had to fight the DAs to stay free even when innocent.we must take back our rights to defend ourselves.and make the rep understand they work for us.

Teddy, I agree whole hearted. They do work for us, but around here us is mainly the shoreline/NYC suburbs.:banghead: Under CT law, you have the obligation to retreat even in your own home, BUT that does not mean you can not use lethal force when necessary. Around here before the Chesire murders, people were pretty blind to bad things happening in the "quiet small towns". I argue there are no such thing as "quiet small town" immune from bad things. They just busted some pediphile in our small town

 

[Big Boomer]

Somehow I forget, was this EVER on topic?

Thanks for the article, but I think we are not on an incline here and never were.

 

[Working Man]

Perhaps OT but...

I have trained with several nationally known trainers who required proof of good citizenship before they'd admit a student into their classes.

Please explain exactly what this means.

 

[The Cavalry]

It's been my experience that "proof of good citizenship" is either a valid CCW permit (indicative of clean criminal record) or a written statement of such from the local PD. SIG Academy comes to mind as requiring either of these two documents before admittance into their courses.