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Fast and Furious Report by DOJ Inspector General now available

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Sebastian the Ibis, Sep 20, 2012.

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  1. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    The only takers will be those who supported the fundamental premise of Fast and Furious, namely that there is a need for a new AWB and that it justifies ANYTHING done in furtherance of it, including the deaths of Brian Terry and HUNDREDS of Mexicans.
     
  2. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Member

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    My understanding of exec privilage was that the PRIVATE ADVICE of those close, and the personal thoughts which formed the basis of a course of action, NOT be made public and prevent 'honest' discourse from happening for fear of what was said behind closed doors getting out/ second guessing

    well, we know what happened
    if there was NO knowledge (from a whitehouse that sees fit to leak secret information like water through a sieve)

    then why hasn't there been a PEEP??? surely there would be someone who was willing to toss those emails into the bag when they were handing out new foreign strategies....
     
  3. k_dawg

    k_dawg Member

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    If Obama had nothing to do with F&F, then there exist no documents pertaining to F&F which are entitled to Executive Priveledge.

    As indicated in this report, the Inspector General's report lists upwards of 100,000 relevent documents, not entitled to Executive Privledge, yet which the DOJ/ATF refused to share with Congress. This is in addition to the President's own promise to have the most transparent administration, and Nancy Pelosi's claim to 'drain the swamp' of corruption.

    Of course, retraction or no retraction, Holder commited perjury during his testimony to Congress.

    Our 'impartial' media can't even ask Harry Reid about his blatant lies over Mitt Romney's tax returns. So we'll never see the facts with regards to F&F as they have effectively suppressed the story.

    NW appears to either be a poor troll, a poor schill or suffering from Stockholm syndrome. We should stop feeding him, and simply have pity for him.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2012
  4. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    Google "American Hunters and Shooters Association" (AHSA) and you'll know everything you need to know in that regard.
     
  5. Neverwinter

    Neverwinter Member

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    Of course no one is asking for the president to submit to a strip search, any more than people are talking about cutting up babies when talking about King Solomon. It's an allegory which works even if you decrease the intrusiveness of the request. The implausibility of the search request achieving the alleged results doesn't make sense given the other information was available.

    I've taken the liberty of plugging in the values for your post below.
    "Had the strip search been consented to it might (or might not) have made the issue clear, one way or the other. A reasonable person might conclude that if you had nothing to conceal, consenting to the strip search would work in your favor. Not doing so would at best, strongly suggest guilt. Your counsel may try to evade what is an obvious truth, but they are unlikely to make a sale."

    Taking that approach to executive privilege results in some unusual conclusions in regards to other recent uses of executive privilege, such as Katrina responses, US attorney firing, and Abu Ghraib mistreatment.

    Labelling me makes sense from a denier's point of view, since it means that one doesn't have to address the cognitive dissonance and logical fallacies expressed in their posts. Labelling means that they don't have to even consider how their premise depends on an assumption shown not to be true in the report. When they make posts like "Fast and Furious had NO purpose beyond manufacturing support for a new AWB. Those who support Fast and Furious support a new AWB. White House documents are being withheld to conceal the extent of the collusion.", they don't have to think about the fact that their argument hinges on Affirming the Consequent. It's the F&F version of Kanye West proclaiming that "George Bush doesn't care about black people" because of the mistakes made with Katrina response. Responding to a post concerning the history of unresponsiveness to Congressional investigations with the above fallacy is more of the avoidance pattern, because it means examining the inapplicability of their assumptions regarding guilt and motive of an incident. Either that or it was a deliberate, malicious misdirection, but if I'm going to afford the executive branch the courtesy of Hanlon's Razor, there's no reason not to give it up here.
     
  6. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    Changing the subject won't raise Brian Terry... and hundreds of Mexicans from the dead.

    But as I noted previously, those committed to a new assault weapon ban will defend literally ANYTHING done in furtherance of one, including providing guns to murderous drug cartels.
     
  7. Kiln

    Kiln Member

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    QFT.
     
  8. Neverwinter

    Neverwinter Member

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    It's the same subject. The assumption of guilt as a result of the application of executive privilege. One that you curiously(or not so curiously, based on the labelling paragraph from post 55) seem to be ignoring. Just like all of the other fallacies that you refuse to acknowledge or defend.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012
  9. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    The duplicitous attempt to claim executive privilege is only the cherry on top of the festering mound of guilt.

    EVERYTHING that Obama and Holder have done in the ENTIRE stinking mess points directly at culpability, from the before the fact claim of "working under the radar", to the after the fact attempts to conceal what Obama and Holder knew and when they knew it.

    But yet again, for those who support a new assault weapons ban, literally NOTHING done in furtherance of one will EVER be criticized.
     
  10. Neverwinter

    Neverwinter Member

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    By your definition, the Terrys are in support of a new assault weapons ban because they refuse to criticize Holder and Obama for organizing F&F. The death of Brian Terry and the hundreds of Mexicans are inconsequential to them because they support the conclusions of the report.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012
  11. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    I don't recall seeing any STATEMENTS by them supporting the conclusions of the report. Can you post a link?

    By the way, did they make any statements indicating a desire for the White House and Justice Department to stop stonewalling?
     
  12. Fremmer

    Fremmer Member

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    Lol sorry, there's no "we don't want them to know how we coordinated and worked together to stonewall a congressional investigation" privilege, and repeatedly referring to that as an internal deliberations executive privilege doesn't make it any less legally invalid. Obama sounds just like nixon.

    The american people deserve to know what obama knew and planned. Why is obama using an absurd legal argument to justify the cover up? Just produce the documents so that everyone knows the truth.
     
  13. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    The DOJ OIG was allowed to see tens of thousands of DOJ documents that were withheld from the Committee. The Holder DOJ trusted the DOJ's IG. So the Obama WH witholding documents from its own DOJ Inspector General is the tactical equivalent of a civilian refusing to submit to a strip search in a investigation? I don't buy the analogy. Its more like the police chief refusing to talk to his internal affairs office.

    Other topic, expanding my earlier observation:
    I will add to my earlier posts that when Calderon met with Bush, both agreed that the increase in drug war homicides was a good thing because the vast majority were drug cartel members. The first strike when Calderon sent the Army into his home state Dec 2006 resulted in 500 cartel deaths. This was viewed as winning the War on Drugs. Collateral damage of Operation Michoacan were the deaths of ~100 policemen and ~60 soldiers.

    The Mexican newspaper El Universal began publishing a running total of deaths attributed to drug cartel violence starting when Calderon mobilized the Army in Operation Michoacan in Dec 2006, the start of the current Mexican Drug War.

    Reported homicides and in particular gun homicides in Mexico were stable between 1997 and 2006, averaging 12,658 homicides with 3,503 by shooting per year over ten years.
    Code:
    Mexican Homicides and Deaths Attributed to the Mexican Drug War
    Year:    Total          Gun           Drug War
    -----    ------      ------         --------
    2007:     8,867       4,040           2,837 
    2008:    14,006       5,095           6,844 
    2009:    19,803       8,804           9,635 
    2010:    24,374      11,309          15,273 
    
    The gun deaths and drug war deaths are subsets of the Total Homicides.
    (Notice the Drug War Death totals per year for 2008-2010 exceeded the number of Mexican gun homicides for those years. Mexican drug gangsters are killing thousands of people each year with weapons other than firearms.)

    16 Apr 2009 Mexican President Felipe Calderon appeared before news media with US President Barak Obama and blamed the accelerated death rate in Mexico on the sunset of the US Assault Weapons Ban AWB in 2004. Obama stated his support for renewing the Assault Weapons ban, blaming the US Congress and gun rights resistance. Sep 2009 Obama appointed Dennis Burke, credited by Sen Dennis DeConcini with being the architect of the AWB, as US Attorney for Phoenix. Oct 2009 the discredited tactic of gunwalking, ordered stopped by the Bush Administration 6 Oct 2007, was re-instated by Phoenix ATF SAC William Newell (who had been honcho under Wide Receiver (2006-2007), Hernandez (2007) and Medrano (2008)). Newell was operating in a total vacuum, and the renewal of gunwalking goes no higher than Newell and Phoenix ATF and Burke and Phoenix USAO, and it was never an attempt to promote the AWB or bolster the 90% Myth by putting more US guns in cartel hands to show up in crime scene traces.

    How credibile is Burke? 15 Dec 2010 the day after Brian Terry was shot, Burke emailed Wilkinson at DOJ HQ that two guns at the scene were OF&F guns sold in Phoenix. When Burke met Terry's family three months later, Burke told them that the guns were sold at a store in Texas. And of course any possible communication between DOJ and the WH is off limits, because the WH did not directly communicate with Phoenix. What communications we do have between Phoenix. DOJ and the public show the players like Burke are liars.
     
  14. Sky

    Sky Member

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    Good post Carl I have read the same thing from different sources. Does not make it so but at least people who work off of evidence instead of blind faith have more to work with to arrive at a conclusion on what transpired. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_1...furious-to-make-the-case-for-gun-regulations/
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2012
  15. k_dawg

    k_dawg Member

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    If Obama or the White House had nothing to do with F&F, then none of the documents regarding F&F legally enjoy Executive Priveledge.

    The Oath of Office ends with " preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States"

    Somehow I fail to see 'except for the 2nd amendment'. Or the 4th, and heck, the 8th.
     
  16. Luger_carbine

    Luger_carbine Member

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    Univision's documentary airs sometime today (Sunday)

    I like the fact that as a news agency their primary concern is reporting the news unlike the media in the U.S. who seem primarily concerned with not reporting anything that might hurt Barack Obama's re-election chances.

    http://hotair.com/archives/2012/09/29/video-univisions-bombshell-report-on-fast-furious/

    Also of note is that people are starting to remember Kevin O’Reilly.

    Kevin O’Reilly ?? Oh ya what ever happened to that guy - didn't he go to the Middle East or something like that ?

    This last Thursday Kevin O’Reilly got a letter from Sen Grassley and Representative Issa calling him in for an interview and threatening a subpeona if he doesn't.

    The reporters in Mexico are not letting this drop and they are asking the obvious questions:

    http://dailycaller.com/2012/09/20/o...e-tv-interview-shouldnt-you-fire-eric-holder/
     
  17. Sky

    Sky Member

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    http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnew...sh-fast-and-furious-report-blames-atf-and-doj

     
  18. Sky

    Sky Member

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    http://hotair.com/archives/2012/09/29/video-univisions-bombshell-report-on-fast-furious/

     
  19. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    For Dish network, Univision is channel 270. 7:00pm tonight "Rapido y Furioso" with (I hope) English subtitles.

    Even that makes the 4 Feb letter a stink bomb, not to mention Holder's Holder's May testimony about knowing about it only a few weeks.

     
  20. k_dawg

    k_dawg Member

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    The Mexican media is more concerned about illegal activity by the US GOv't than the US media. :-/
     
  21. Sky

    Sky Member

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    Well that was a bust for non Spanish speakers but Fox News did a brief synopsis on the broadcast without all the bloody pics. Same stuff with people calling for resignations at the J.D.

    Traditionally IMO even if we get a new President any wrong doing by a previous administration gets a pardon or free hall pass. We will see.
     
  22. Sky

    Sky Member

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  23. Sky

    Sky Member

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    http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/09/26/3022322/obama-appoints-wife-of-univision.html#storylink=cpy

    http://dailycaller.com/2012/10/01/u...ious-scandal-to-murders-of-mexican-teenagers/ is a verbal description of the Univision article.

    I was pleased with Univision keeping the F&F story in the spot light for many reasons…. It was some investigative journalism at it's best; kinda like the old days…but NOW I don’t know if there were other nefarious reasons which are all part of a larger plan? Yes I know, time to pull out the Tin Foil but, the timing for me is troublesome or put another way "makes a fellow wonder". I would not be surprised if we do not see the footage from the Univision broadcast at some future date for some cause and effect towards an end that we may not like. Just saying.....I suppose anything is possible or much ado about nothing..
     
  24. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    With sadness, I am posting the news that in the early A.M. on Tuesday, Oct. 2nd. another gunfight between Mexican smugglers and the Border Patrol occurred southeast of Bisbee, Arizona. One Border Patrolman was killed, while another was wounded. Fortunately it is reported that his wounds are not life threatening. At this time no additional details are available.

    This incident may or may not be related to the Fast & Furious scandal, but it is a reminder of the risk these officers take on a daily basis, and the total failure of the Federal Government to take any serious steps to secure our southern border.
     
  25. Sky

    Sky Member

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