Faulty design or normal?

[wiringlunatic]

Ok, folks, as a MAJOR newbie to semi's I have a question that may be stupid, but please bear with me. All of my handguns are revolvers at this point. I'm looking into getting a semi for my wife, as her DAO revolver is difficult for her to handle due to the excessive trigger pull. I'm looking at the Taurus 738 .380 auto pistol. I know there are a lot of Taurus haters on here, but please try to answer my question without questioning my sanity -- my Taurus revolver has served me very well. I saw a video on Youtube claiming that there was a defect in the design of the 738 such that if you partly released the trigger then pulled it again, the hammer would fall from halfcock and not reset (despite being a DAO pistol) and would not fire until the slide is racked. I certainly can see someone not fully releasing the trigger in a self defense situation. One person I asked said that this is normal on all pistols, that the trigger has to be fully released. Is this true? do all of the other brands/models do the same thing? Again, please forgive my ignorance and help me to figure these things out. Here is the video:
http://youtu.be/MEPqBwUIr6k
Is this normal, a bad design, a defective pistol, or a hoax?

 

[NG VI]

Don't know anything about that pistol, but many designs have a shorter reset point than fully forward for the trigger. As far as partial pulling and then releasing without firing the trigger, maybe it is caused by the way the precocked system works in that pistol?

I've got to say, the small .380 pistols have a reputation for having a little bit of a snap to them because of the light weight and frequent blowback operation. Is she set on the 738, or has she been able to try out some of the small 9mm pistols out there?

 

[gb6491]

...I saw a video on Youtube claiming that there was a defect in the design of the 738 such that if you partly released the trigger then pulled it again, the hammer would fall from halfcock and not reset (despite being a DAO pistol) and would not fire until the slide is racked...

Some Kel-Tec pistols could be "short stroked" (not being allowed to fully reset) as described in the video and they got hammered in a test article because of it. To KT's credit, they redesigned the hammer block to preclude this happening.
Regards,
Greg

 

[Nushif]

As far as I know any DA trigger can be short stroked. But for some reason nobody ever rags on snubbies for it ... or Kahrs ... or my DA Beretta ... or hunting revolvers ...
Train to not short stroke it?

Also, just because I can ... just because she's a woman doesn't mean she needs a .380 instead of a nine, or a compact instead of a fullsize. Any particular reason you're looking at this specific combo?

 

[holdencm9]

As far as I know any DA trigger can be short stroked. But for some reason nobody ever rags on snubbies for it ... or Kahrs ... or my DA Beretta ... or hunting revolvers ...
Train to not short stroke it?

The difference is that on a Beretta or Kahr I don't think the hammer will drop. If you don't let off the trigger enough, and then try to squeeze the trigger again, the result is: nothing. But on the TCP, if you short-stroked it and pulled the trigger again, the hammer would fall (from the half-cocked position, which is where all the little pocket .380's have the hammer after the slide cycles) rendering the gun useless until you racked the slide.

I saw the same video the OP is talking about and was able to replicate the problem with a gun at the store, and this (along with price, not gonna lie) led me to purchase an LCP. I don't think it is a major problem but in an SD situation if I was squeezing the trigger quickly, I'd hate to short stroke it and end up with essentially the same result as a dud. Maybe they have fixed the problem. I would go and try to do it. If you can't, then it is probably okay.

 

[Nushif]

On the DA revolvers I've had if you short stroke it, you end up actually almost locking it up, or at least it feels that way ... this is a Colt and a Taurus. Both do the same ugly "gear grind."

 

[holdencm9]

That is odd. But I will take your word for it since I am no revolver guy. I do know, on my LCP, after pulling the trigger and the hammer dropping, if you rack the slide and then begin to slowly let off the trigger, there is an audible click (that can also be felt) when the trigger has reset. If you tried to pull the trigger before you hear that click, nothing would happen.

On the TCP I tried (and the one in the video), there were two clicks. If you pull the trigger after hearing only the first click, the hammer drops from half-cocked and you have to rack slide. You have to wait till you hear the 2-clicks, that tells you it is reset, then you can pull the trigger again. It is weird. I wouldn't call it a "flaw" per se, but definitely counter intuitive.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I don't know anything about the Taurus pistol you're referring to, and I've never really experienced this alleged problem with other pistols.

But it doesn't matter. Simply train your wife to immediately perform Tap, Roll & Rack anytime the pistol doesn't fire when she presses the trigger. Make her put a dummy cartridge randomly in every magazine she shoots so the action becomes ingrained and performed automatically. It's not "fun" but training isn't supposed to be fun. It's hard work to develop and maintain these skills - but the effort is worth it.

It may take some soul searching on her part as to whether she's willing to invest the time and effort to become really proficient with an autoloader. If she doesn't think she can do it then maybe you should consider a trigger job or a fitting a lighter main spring in her revolver to ease the trigger pull and let it go at that. For an example see - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YWDK3OS7IA

Good luck!

 

[Mizar]

The difference with short stroking a revolver is this - it does lock the trigger, but as soon as you release it to fully reset everything is back to normal. For me Taurus didn't follow the KISS rule. Tap, roll, bang, rack and etc... - your wife does not need a special training - just get her another gun. Remember - KISS...

Boris

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Tap, roll, bang, rack and etc... - your wife does not need a special training -

Learning to clear stoppages quickly is NOT special training. It's a basic skill.

 

[rcmodel]

It's certainly not normal in almost all DA firearms ever made.

I do consider it a faulty design if short stroking the trigger requires a Tap, Rack, Bang drill to get a gun back up & running.

A tiny .380 pocket pistol isn't the easiest gun in the world to TRB.
Especially if you are using one hand to hold off an attacker.
And some of them are so small they choke when trying to eject a loaded round.

As already mentioned, Kel-Tec's first generation P32 & P3AT suffered the same malady.

They have since corrected the problem with a new hammer block that doesn't require a slide rack to reset it.
It just won't snap off the hammer block anymore.

Now, if you short stroke the trigger, it just doesn't go bang.
But it does after you fully release the trigger and pull it again.
Just like every DA revolver or full-size DA/SA pistol made.

rc

 

[Mizar]

Learning to clear stoppages quickly is NOT special training. It's a basic skill.

Yes, TRB must be learned, but avoiding a gun that can induce stoppages by simple trigger pulling IS clever thinking and has nothing to do with basic skills.

Boris

 

[TheBurns]

i too saw the video, and had this happen with someone else's. This is, like everyone says, something to overcome with training.

 

[wiringlunatic]

I guess it makes sense that short stroking any DA auto or wheelgun will cause it to not fire. I've shortstroked my revolver on the pull stroke during rapid DA use and had it skip rounds, but it goes "bang" when I pull the trigger. I was always one who said no to any auto. I'm starting to change my mind, but TRB in a life or death situation doesn't sound like fun. I know how badly I handled my shotgun when I got startled by a pheasant some years ago and my life wasn't in danger. I understand I will never handle my gun as well in a panic as I do at the range, and neither will anyone else. If I'm understanding you all correctly, the Taurus isn't the only one that does this, but not all of them do. Is that correct?

Nushif: She used to be quite strong and may have been able to handle a 9, but now her wrists have weakened to the point where her DAO H&R topbreak is too much for her. She was shooting my Taurus 85 .38 Special with a 4" barrel, which is very tame, and it kicked too much for her. If she hates shooting it, she won't practice. If she doesn't practice, she won't shoot well if she has to. I'm actually not sure if the .380 will work for her, I may go to a .22

She shot her friend's S&W 2213 and liked it. Not sure if I want to deal with the jams and junk in a .22. From what I can tell, .380's cycle far better than .22's.

Do you believe this can be trained out, or is it a very real possibility in a life or death situation no matter what training you get? As I said, I know very little about autos. I trust revolvers, but she can handle the straight slide of an auto better than the flip of a revolver.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I suggest you consider a .327 Magnum DA revolver. It can be loaded with a wide range of .32 caliber loads which produce less recoil than .38 Special and a .32 S&W Long wadcutter produces greater wound trauma than .22.

S&W, Ruger, Taurus and Charter Arms all offer modern DA revolvers in .327 Magnum.