Hammer blocking trigger mechanisms...are they bad?

[RecoilRob]

Everyone...recently I stumbled upon this review of the Taurus Curve:
The comments made on the 'false reset' when releasing the trigger made me offer some comments and there's been some back and forth over it. Was wondering what the general consensus of experienced auto-pistoleers might be regarding this lockwork design?

I'll offer mine first: the hammer block holds the hammer in a pre-cocked position which makes the gun drop-safe. It also then reduces the trigger pull needed to fully cock and release the shot. The negatives are that if you don't fully stroke the trigger you'll only drop the block resulting in a light-strike that then requires you to pull the slide back to reset it otherwise the trigger cannot engage and pull the hammer. Quite a few KT's and others that copied the design use this system.

Some people are declaring this a completely defective design...while I contend it's merely a machine and the operator bears the responsibility to learn how to properly operate it. My background includes learning to shoot DA revolvers as a youngster so fully releasing the trigger between shots is not an issue and easily accomplished. It seems that people who are only familiar with modern auto-pistols which will fire from the first 'click' short reset will condemn the hammer block design rather than their ability to work with it.

I've been offering the advise that if you don't like the trigger...don't buy it! I have no problems with it and understand how it works which I believe is the real issue here....shooter ignorance. 'My other guns don't work like this...so it MUST be defective'!! Your thoughts, gents (and ladies)?

 

[drband]

I agree! Every gun has its design idiosyncrasies. Triggers, safeties, grips, sights, mag releases, etc...
Adapt/accept or move on.

 

[ironworkerwill]

Oh, I thought it was a staple gun.

I think that trigger design would be a no-go for me. That's jus me though.

 

[JeffG]

You'd have to train with it. Why not? It sure is concealable.

 

[MAKster]

The no longer made Taurus 738 TCP had the same issue of the hammer dropping but not firing if you pulled the trigger without fully releasing it. Kel-tec redesigned their 380 to fix this problem but Taurus doesn't seem to think it is a problem.

 

[Mizar]

My background includes learning to shoot DA revolvers as a youngster so fully releasing the trigger between shots is not an issue and easily accomplished. It seems that people who are only familiar with modern auto-pistols which will fire from the first 'click' short reset will condemn the hammer block design rather than their ability to work with it.

Well, the problem is, that when you short stroke a revolver, or a "normal" semi-auto all it takes to fire it after that event is to release the trigger and press it again. In my opinion, in a self defense situation this trigger mechanism is a recipe for disaster, as short stroking a trigger under stress is something that happens very often.

P.S. And I am left handed, so that curved Curve is of little use for me. Not to mention, that the name "curve" in my language closely resembles a quite derogatory slang word for immoral woman...

 

[chicharrones]

The no longer made Taurus 738 TCP had the same issue of the hammer dropping but not firing if you pulled the trigger without fully releasing it. Kel-tec redesigned their 380 to fix this problem but Taurus doesn't seem to think it is a problem.

Exactly.

My TCP had the same problem but I fixed it with Ruger LCP parts. I've read the TCP can be fixed with KelTec parts, too.

For Taurus to continue to ignore this problem when KelTec corrected it and Ruger corrected it from day one, baffles me.

Ignorance is bliss when it comes to Taurus USA or Taurus Brazil.

 

[chicharrones]

Well, the problem is, that when you short stroke a revolver, or a "normal" semi-auto all it takes to fire it after that event is to release the trigger and press it again. In my opinion, in a self defense situation this trigger mechanism is a recipe for disaster, as short stroking a trigger under stress is something that happens very often.

Exactly Part Two.

If under stress and the TCP/Curve trigger is short reset and pulled again, the hammer falls from half cock. Typically this causes a light strike and the chambered cartridge won't fire. Which requires a tap rack drill kicking out a likely perfectly good cartridge. You lose time and you lose ammo capacity. This isn't a good situation in a close up self defense scenario.

 

[chicharrones]

May I add, the idea of not buying the gun if you don't like the false trigger reset problem only works for the internet savvy buyer who happens across videos like in the first post.

For those that just walk into an Academy Store on a weekend to buy a pocket pistol don't know of the TCP/Curves short comings.

So, that person buys a gun without the problem disclosed in the owners manual or in other Taurus literature. That person finds out when they do hurried practice drills at the range to simulate stress.

No other gun of this design (except the Taurus) does this anymore because the hammer block has been redesigned in all the non-Taurus guns. Taurus has known about the redesigned hammer block others are using since at least the B series TCPs.

 

[Varminterror]

Lots of handgun designs will trip over a short stroked reset. Lots of clicks on reset of a DA revolver - guys live with those triggers just fine.

 

[chicharrones]

Lots of handgun designs will trip over a short stroked reset. Lots of clicks on reset of a DA revolver - guys live with those triggers just fine.

I respect your experience in all things firearms, VT. I do have to ask if you own any self defense guns that will drop the hammer from half cock due to a false reset trigger pull?

No other gun I own or have I fired will do that. None.

Some of those other guns may bind up on a short trigger reset, but you still get the opportunity to go to full reset then go "bang" without doing a malfunction drill.

Double action revolvers don't need a malfunction drill to recock the hammer. One simply lets the trigger out to full reset and then you pull the trigger again.

If this problem was with a target shooting pistol, then I'd think of it as a quirk and an annoyance. However, these particular Taurus guns are sold as self defense guns.

The bugs were worked out by the original designer KelTec and all other clones have adopted the KelTec redesign. Except Taurus. Taurus put their heads in the sand years ago about this issue. At one time Taurus customer service employees would tell concerned TCP owners that the TCP is a single action/double action design. Which it is not.

If any one isn't privy to what design change is required, it is just to make the MIM molds slightly different to make the tip of the hammer block a little bit longer. That little tip prevents the hammer from dropping from a false reset.

 

[Varminterror]

There's a big difference in a design flaw and a design which is crippled by shooter error. Great design accounts for potential shooter errors, but humans are incredibly adept in discovering new ways to cripple mechanical systems. Good designs work in the conditions they SHOULD be exposed. In this aspect alone, the Taurus is a good design, the LCP is a great design.

I don't own a TCP any longer, but I have owned one and in the context of your question - I did NOT sell it because I could accidentally drop the hammer by pulling the trigger after short stroking. I sold it because I have about 2 dozen other defensive carry pistols, and I wanted to trade the TCP towards a Curve (haven't yet made that purchase, admittedly). So that would be one if I had kept it, or you asked the same question about a year ago.

Pick almost any firearm and you can find a way to choke it. Until I modified the release, I had a habit of incidentally dropping the mag under recoil on my LC9, the mag wouldn't fall clear so I didn't know immediately what happened, but it wouldn't go bang. Tap and rack, and I'd be back in it, but that's the same net result as what happens with these Taurus pistols. I still make contact and drop the mag occasionally on a factory release in my LC9s Pro too, so while it DOES go bang, it's about 33/33/34 whether the mag drops away upon firing, or the round gets picked up properly, or the round jams into the feed ramp and sticks my mag in the pistol - so THAT particular failure is uber fun to have waiting for me - which is why I didn't carry it until I fixed the mag release for myself. If I short stroke my LCR's - which I have 3 - and only go 2 clicks instead of 4, I'll skip a round and end up effectively in the same boat (unless a guy is OK with the idea of clicking through fired chambers to unknowingly come back across that skipped round), or even worse, if I short stroke 2 or 3, or 4 shots throughout a cylinder worth. God forbid I ever have a primer failure in my G19, instead of my P224, since I can't double with my G19, while I can with my P224. Same deal in the LCP I carry every day - if I get a bad primer, I can't double, so I'll have to tap and rack, and find myself a round short. I use my G34 as a nightstand gun occasionally, and with the original extended mag release, I had the same issue of dropping the mag with the tip of my thumb under recoil - pretty embarrassing in the middle of a stage to go, "bang bang bang click F*CK!!!" as your mag falls on the ground in the middle of a string, but it's a much more serious issue to consider when it's sitting on my nightstand waiting to save my life. Change the mag release, no more problems... I carry left handed most of the time, which makes the safety selector on the LC9 almost impossible for me to operate within my draw stroke, so I leave it off safety (redundant and unnecessary). In the first holster I had for it, the safety wasn't covered, so it occasionally slipped onto safe - so if I drew the pistol, I'd have a dead stick until I fumbled around and released the safety. I bobbed the selector so it's subsurface of the grip frame and can be used with a fingernail, but can't be inadvertently activated, no more problems... I have an SP101 with a tight enough BC gap, it will choke if it's too dirty, and ANY revolver can choke if it gets powder build up under the extractor - all of these things above are things I, as the shooter, can either modify away, maintain away, or train away, but if I, the shooter, screw up, it chokes the pistol.

Going to the absurd, but it DOES happen - if a shooter forgets to rack the slide upon loading their EDC, they're going to have issues when they draw it in defense too... I'm not too proud to admit I've done that in a match. Click, deadstick, lost time... Defensively, that might be - Click, deadstick, dead me...

So while I don't have pistols vulnerable to this VERY SPECIFIC condition you mention - a dead fallen hammer on a live round due to a short stroke by the shooter, in spirit of the question - yes, I do own AND CARRY plenty of defensive handguns which can be choked by certain mis-steps by the shooter, including short stroking the trigger.

A guy isn't forced into owning a TCP. Don't like the design? Don't buy it. If you already bought it and don't like it, sell it - half of marriages in the US end in divorce, and it's a lot easier to get rid of a pistol than an ex wife.

 

[chicharrones]

Thanks for the reply, VT.

My particular TCP showed this problem to me in my first range outing in early 2012. Within a month I cobbled up a permanent fix by using a Ruger LCP hammer block, LCP trigger bar, and changing the profile of the underside of the Taurus hammer to work with those parts.

I had to try the fix and I'm glad it was successful. Otherwise, I would have sold the gun.

 

[Gun Master]

Thanks for the reply, VT.

My particular TCP showed this problem to me in my first range outing in early 2012. Within a month I cobbled up a permanent fix by using a Ruger LCP hammer block, LCP trigger bar, and changing the profile of the underside of the Taurus hammer to work with those parts.

I had to try the fix and I'm glad it was successful. Otherwise, I would have sold the gun.

Thanks for the info. It has changed my mind about buying a Taurus PT738 TCP, until they fix the problem.