FBI?DOJ Powerpoint on Terminal Ballistics - GRAPHIC!

[macadore]

Bad guys don’t always give you a good shot. Inconsiderate of them. Would fmj have worked better?

 

[VARifleman]

It was stated in the presentation that the BG was wearing a down jacket (presumably a really heavy one). That would cause expansion, although most of the time you hear about that plugging the point without causing expansion leading to significant over penetration. I guess that which was once considered absolute is proven to be not so.

 

[ar10]

5 of the 6 40SW fired rounds expanded in the body.
That big bullet hole on the right side compares pretty well to the mushroomed round between the lung and heart.
The guy was also still alive and they had to fight with him to get the handcuffs on. Page 19.
This guy got hit 17 times, 11 stayed in the body, so 5 of the 11 were .40SW that means 6 had to be .223.
They stated 107 rounds were fired in about 3.5 minutes and the target was about 20ft away.

They also stated on page 19: It is impossible for .40 S&W 180 gr. JHP ammunition to expand with only 1 in. or less penetration in a human body.

I think I'd stick with the .40SW.

Both officers were wounded and returned fire, one seriously. It sounds to me they did one hell of a job and even with all the bullets thru and in the guy he was still kicking. I also think the person doing the autopsy needs review his/her reports. I saw a lot more big bullets than small bullets in the xrays.

 

[george29]

Minute traces of marijuana whichthe report appears to dismiss as important, however, adreneline can flush the system so what appears to be a minute trace may have been more significant before the adreneline rush. Either way, scary that a guy can take so many hits and still fight when they are trying to handcuff (broken elbow too). I don't understand why they think the G-21 in .45 acp will do a better job. It is slower and has less pentration than the .40. As previously stated most of the 107 rounds probably went through the car first which made penetration shallower than expected. The officers were ambushed so I can understand expending this many rounds, they reacted in surprise. Scary situation. Hope the officers make complete recoveries. I carry a five shot .44 and try picturing defending myself. Time perhaps to invest in a really good laser sight system as the reports conclussion is that shot placement is everything. For those that don't have or use one, time to reconsider a good 12 guage with buckshot or slugs as HD.

 

[Wes Janson]

There's still a tremendous amount of information that we're missing here. I really, really want to know the full details of the environment, what cover each participant was behind, and what distances were involved. 3.5 minutes (suspect had time to RELOAD HIS MAGAZINE FROM A BOX OF AMMO FFS!?) and obviously multiple reloads on both sides, without any decisive hits?

Down jackets don't reduce penetration from 15+" to 1". The only possible explanation is that they were shooting through at least one barrier.

Why is it that slide 6 states that the suspect was killed by fire from an M-4, while slide 19 states that the assailant resisted being handcuffed? And why is it that slide 6 states that he was shot "approximately 16 times with .223", and "shot 17 times" on slide 18, yet it's clear he was shot at least half a dozen times with .40s? Bad information on the first slide?

This is one of those cases where it's a real shame there isn't full information available to understand precisely what happened and draw useful conclusions.

 

[Sergeant Sabre]

The information on the slide that includes the statement that the .40 only penetrated one inch is not accurate.

Why is it that slide 6 states that the suspect was killed by fire from an M-4, while slide 19 states that the assailant resisted being handcuffed? And why is it that slide 6 states that he was shot "approximately 16 times with .223", and "shot 17 times" on slide 18, yet it's clear he was shot at least half a dozen times with .40s? Bad information on the first slide?

If you look at the two slides prior to that one, you will see that the "NTOA" (whatever that is) posted an incorrect based on inaccurate autopsy information. The slides say that an FBI special agent picked up the info and began forwarding it, leading to the info snowballing and everybody calling into question the .40 S&W, and praising the .223 as having saved the day. This is false.

Slide #6 is the initial inacccurate information. I can't begin to understand why they included this slide, because it's bad info and if you skim through the brief it looks like the summary of the report.

The truth is at the end of the presentation. 11 of 17 hits exited the body. Of the six that did not exit, all were .40 cal, and 5 were expanded. The report claims Hornady TAP .223 ammunition does not satisfy the FBI gelatin test requirements and did not perform as the police department expected in this instance. On slide 20 there is a big bullet-point that says "The .40 S&W ammo did not fail in this incident"

 

[LAK]

WEll, this only reinforces my view that those 15-shot pistols just aren't necessary

 

[loneviking]

Slide 6, as noted, has to be inaccurate. Which makes me wonder about how accurate some other statements and claims were, such as:

1. The cops had to struggle to handcuff the guy---WTH? This is a gun battle, he's shot one cop and has taken multiple rounds and then gives up? How/why were the officers closing with this madman and trying to cuff him? The cops I know would have shot him down until he wasn't moving anymore!

2. Why is it that the x-ray shows a slug in the left lung, but the photos show a chest tube in the right? Some of these pictures have to be reversed. In this same picture, the ECG patches are running down the RIGHT side of the body while in real life, ECG patches go on the left side of the body. But, that sure looks like the damaged right arm.

3. The arm is disarticulated from the elbow with no evidence of a bullet having done that. When a bullet smashes bone, you get a pulverized bone with lots of little chips.

4. How does the BG wind up with GSW's to the feet? I've worked ER's in war zones for 25 years and I've only seen that twice before and they were both from domestic shootings, not cops vs. BG's.

I wish I could read the blog part but it's too tiny. Bottom line though, is that the bigger the gun the better the performance. The 223's zipped right on through, the 40's expanded well and stayed in. A 357 or a 44 would have stopped the guy even better!

 

[misANTHrope]

The second morgue photo is definitely not reversed- you can see the writing on his arm tattoo, and it isn't reversed. I'm not well-versed enough on the medical stuff to comment besides that, though.

As for this:

4. How does the BG wind up with GSW's to the feet? I've worked ER's in war zones for 25 years and I've only seen that twice before and they were both from domestic shootings, not cops vs. BG's.

At one point, an officer with an M4 shot under a vehicle at the suspect's feet, and made those wounds.

Actually, I see now that you couldn't read the blog part. I copied/pasted it for you:

All,
The following was posted on an NTOA blog last night:
3 officers were involved in a shooting this week.* An ambush was set up for the officers prior to their arrival, they took fire while still in their cruisers.* One officer was hit in the forearm, another received wounds to his forehead from a ricochet, another was injured (NFI).* The suspect was armed with a .45 handgun.* The officers were armed with Glock 22's and SPEER 180 gr. Gold Dot Hollow Points.
Officers fired on the subject and hit him in the left arm, completely shattering the bone.* He was also hit five times in the chest and abdomen.* All rounds penetrated less than 1".* All of the rounds expanded fully but did not cause incapacitation due to the lack of penetration.* According to the Medical Examiner, none of the rounds caused any life threatening injuries.* The subject also received one round into the front of his throat, it penetrated less than 1" as well.* The Medical Examiner stated that the recovered rounds were in pristine condition (still had rifling marks on them).
The subject was wearing a down jacket at the time of the incident.* He was finally taken down after receiving rounds from an M-4 .223, with Hornady Tap 55 gr ballistic tip rounds and Hornady Tap 72 gr. Hollow Points.
The officer with the M-4 was able to shoot underneath a vehicle and hit the suspect in the ankle.* The officer then flanked the subject, who continued to engage officers, and was eventually killed by the officer with the M-4.
The subject had a trace amount of marijuana in his system.
Range between subject and officers: 20 feet.
Subject had a t-shirt on under his jacket.
Subject received approximately sixteen .223 rounds, thirteen of these rounds went completely through.* One round struck his hip and completely shattered it.* Another .223 round struck his aorta and another pierced and collapsed his lung.* Both of these rounds lodged themselves inside the subject.* The Medical Examiner stated that the .223 rounds caused massive internal damage.
This is the second shooting that the PD has experienced where they had to shoot a subject in excess of ten times with .40 S&W ammo to incapacitate or kill.* There was another incident where a subject was shot inside of his vehicle.* He was struck approximately ten times, all the while continuing to fire at officers.* He was eventually killed after suffering a shot to the back of his head.* In this same incident, the back of the subject's seat was struck multiple times, the .40 S&W rounds never penetrated through the seat.* In this incident, all shots had passed through either the windshield or rear window.* Investigators assume that this was the reason for the poor ballistic performance.
(The) PD is now considering replacing their Glock 22's with Glock 21's.

 

[VARifleman]

4. How does the BG wind up with GSW's to the feet? I've worked ER's in war zones for 25 years and I've only seen that twice before and they were both from domestic shootings, not cops vs. BG's.

While it was posted on slide 6, from the pictures it appears true, an officer shot under the car to help take him down.

 

[ar10]

This would be an "assumption" but the shots through the foot (looks like 3) may have been from underneath the vehicles.

Based on the report both LEO's were shot and still returned fire, a lot of it. Under those circumstances I think they did very well.

Wasn't the autopsy report questioned in the beginning as being inaccurate? And didn't the FBI get involved because the PD became concerned the issued handguns did not preform as were supposed to???

I've been a few combat also, as a grunt. It's amazing how many shots an individual or animal can take before dying. Adrenaline is amazing stuff. We hit a water buffalo with 50~60 rounds using M16's in less than a minute. what finally brought it down was a 12ga with 00 next to the back of its head, I think the guy dumped 8 shots in it.

 

[Deer Hunter]

2. Why is it that the x-ray shows a slug in the left lung, but the photos show a chest tube in the right? Some of these pictures have to be reversed. In this same picture, the ECG patches are running down the RIGHT side of the body while in real life, ECG patches go on the left side of the body. But, that sure looks like the damaged right arm.

I've seen ECG patches go on a patient's left leg as well as right leg.

Also, the photograph of his tatoo that said "Live by the gun, Die by the gun" doesn't serve much of a purpose in this powerpoint if it's trying to clear up misinformation.

 

[Wes Janson]

The truth is at the end of the presentation. 11 of 17 hits exited the body. Of the six that did not exit, all were .40 cal, and 5 were expanded. The report claims Hornady TAP .223 ammunition does not satisfy the FBI gelatin test requirements and did not perform as the police department expected in this instance. On slide 20 there is a big bullet-point that says "The .40 S&W ammo did not fail in this incident"

What I want to know is, on what basis do they state that the .40 S&W did not fail? What DID end the fight? And what was the cause for the .40's failure-to-expand? Half a dozen rounds of .40 that only penetrated an inch each certainly weren't responsible for ending the fight, which would seem to indicate that the .223 was the key.

 

[RyanM]

I read awhile ago that it was the .40s which ended the fight. One broke his right arm (clearly visible), stopping him from shooting any more, and one punctured his diaphragm, which was what actually killed him. He died in the ambulance, according to that source.

Also, it's worth noting that despite the fact that 55 gr TAP apparently does not meet the FBI's penetration requirements and 180 gr GD does, the 180 gr GD did not exit, while the 55 gr TAP did, indicating that the 55 gr TAP may penetrate human tissue better than it does gelatin. Perhaps a better substitute is needed.

 

[Pat Cannon]

anarchris (and anybody), you can open Powerpoint presentations with Google Docs nowadays too. I love Google Docs.

Anyway, the last slide says it all:

Lessons Learned
# Determined individuals can sustain many gunshot wounds in areas that produce great pain and continue to fight a long time, even without the aid of drugs or alcohol.
# Shot placement is everything in a gunfight and always the key to stopping a threat effectively.

 

[csmkersh]

Easily the most important bullet point of that presentation:

There is plenty of inaccurate information regarding ballistics/terminal performance disseminated on web forums, even those which are dedicated as LE only.

No, actually the most important bullet point was

Shot placement is everything in a gunfight and always the key to stopping a threat effectively.​

​

 

[loneviking]

A big thank you to misanthrope for posting the blog, which was interesting reading. I swear, the guy on the x-ray/described in the blog and the guy in the pictures have to be two different people!

CSMKersh has it right though that the most important point is that shot placement is everything and always the key to stopping a gunfight. Two rounds from a .40 were what stopped this guy, all of the rest of it was just a waste of time. So, take your time and put your shots where they count.

This incident shows why the 'ladder' form of shooting is a good idea. Picture a human body with a line running down the middle of the body from the chin to the groin. Center the sights on the bottom of the line at the groin area. ]

First shot into the groin can hit the bladder, the femoral artery or the lumbar spine stopping the legs from moving.
Let the recoil walk the next round up into the abdomen where the ascending/descending aortas' are. Third round higher up in the area of the stomach/liver or spleen. Fourth round into the heart. Fifth round into the lungs. Sixth round into the head. You've covered all of the vital areas and maximized your chances for stopping your assailant.

The caveat, of course, is being able to do this while the BG is shooting back at you!

 

[RyanM]

This incident shows why the 'ladder' form of shooting is a good idea.

Seems more like an argument for the "cardiac triangle." Make a triangle with the nipples and the top of the breastbone. Shoot there.

You'll notice none of the bullets hit that area. And the perp had quite a few groin and abdominal wounds, which shows how effective those are.

 

[roscoe]

Could someone clarify what, exactly, did the .40 rounds have to penetrate to get to the skin? Must have been more than a down jacket. Makes me wonder how much better a .357 w/158 grain hollowpoints would have fared.

 

[bogie]

I'm guessing he got made angry...

I hate dumb people when they're angry.

CNS works. The Romero method is messy, and can be difficult to master, but it is efficient.

 

[loneviking]

Seems more like an argument for the "cardiac triangle." Make a triangle with the nipples and the top of the breastbone. Shoot there.

Nope, you're only hitting two systems. Both are vital but the BG can keep going for up to 10 seconds (sometimes more) before the bloodpressure craps out and he drops. Hit as many vital systems as you can.

[/QUOTE]
You'll notice none of the bullets hit that area. And the perp had quite a few groin and abdominal wounds, which shows how effective those are.
[/QUOTE]

Go back and look at the x-rays. I see one slug in the left lung, and one at the base of the heart. Plus, the photos showed that the E.R. had to insert a chest tube, which is done to re-inflate a collapsed lung. Perp still kept on coming...

 

[skywarp_]

Lessons Learned:


Officers involved need more range time.


17/103 is nearly 10% meanwhile live rounds are spraying god knows where. Thankfully no one else was killed.

 

[yokel]

You're better off shooting for the head.

 

[ar10]

I was taught years ago to scatter the shots and don't attempt to shoot at the same location. It's sort of a "moo" point anyway because when you're under attack all one is interested in is self preservation.

I still think the LEO's did a very good job with what they had and what they went through. Having more range time training improves your shooting however taking a bullet like the two LEO's changes a whole bunch of things. It makes very little difference on how much practice you have.
It's funny, I'm sitting here reading the report again thinking of what I would have done. My first impulse would be run like hell.

 

[Kentucky Kernel]

The tattoo on the perp's arm was "live by the gun...die by the gun". He got his wish. I hope the wounded officers fare well.