yeti
Member
Mac - open it with Keynote.
FBI?DOJ Powerpoint on Terminal Ballistics - GRAPHIC!
- Thread starter hankdatank1362
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Mac - open it with Keynote.
The information in this is so contradictory that we must discard it, as we can't tell what is correct and what is not.
I think it is interesting that the decedent was wearing a down jacket. Supposedly Chinese troops were wearing them in the Korean War when the M1 Carbine got a reputation for not penetrating.
I think it is interesting that the decedent was wearing a down jacket. Supposedly Chinese troops were wearing them in the Korean War when the M1 Carbine got a reputation for not penetrating.
macadore
Member
Good point alistaire. Welcome to THR. I find it interesting that people frequently want to blame the round when things do not go as expected. The alleged inadequacy of the 9MM was blamed of for the failure of the Miami shootout. The FBI had to have a new cartridge so the taxpayers paid thousands of dollars so the FBI could have the .40 S&W. Now we find that the .40 S&W does not provide one stop shots under all conditions ether. Some people are just hard to bring down. The 45 ACP did not perform well against Chinese and North Koreans either, but no wants to say it is inadequate. Somehow, it always gets a free pass.
TexasSkyhawk
Internet SEAL
In over 22 years of carrying and using firearms professionally, I've never had a 9mm or a 45 ACP fail to put my target down and keep him down. I've never used a 40S&W, so I cannot comment personally on it.
I have had difficulty on two different occasions putting a target down and keeping him down with a .38 Special +P (agency issued), but out of the same gun, a .357 Magnum (Federal 125 gr JHP) put the target down almost instantly. Hallelejuah for speed loaders. . . .
The latter was a methed up, leather-clad 1% OMC wannabe. And I stress "wannabe" because even though I worked a number of outlaw biker gangs, I just never had any real problems with them. But the wannabes were pure trouble.
Even as a former LE type, it's easy to sit here in the comfort of my air-conditioned home and "advise" the cops involved in this shootout. However, our procedure (fed agency) was with three or more agents on the scene, one of us would always have the shotgun.
And I can't help but feel that a couple of rounds of double-ought, especially to the head/face, would've ended that fight pronto.
Jeff
107 rounds fired in 3.5 minutes by the LEO's and they still had to handcuff him? 
He definetely should be minced meat after that number... am surprised by the complete lack of hits.
Once again... lesson here is that shot placement is far more effective than rate of fire. IMHO....
I have never shot at another human, nor have I been in a gun fight. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn once...
He definetely should be minced meat after that number... am surprised by the complete lack of hits.
Once again... lesson here is that shot placement is far more effective than rate of fire. IMHO....
I have never shot at another human, nor have I been in a gun fight. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn once...
This incident is an excellent case for the FN 5.7x28mm if indeed the .40 S&W rounds only truly did penetrate an inch or less and not causing any major damage to the guy.
Besides the penetration and internal damage caused by the .223 rifle round, it shows that a higher capacity weapon is a good thing for cops to have. At least those cops weren't stuck with .45! Could you imagine?
Besides the penetration and internal damage caused by the .223 rifle round, it shows that a higher capacity weapon is a good thing for cops to have. At least those cops weren't stuck with .45! Could you imagine?
The gist of the re-analysis:
The initial report is demostratively false. For example, how can the subject have been shot 17 times, 16 times with .223 rounds, and have 6 .40 s&w bullets in him? A hack job report, at best.
The .40 s&w rounds can be shown to have performed as expected. The claims of only an inch of penetration are inconsistent with the expanded rounds retreived from the body and the shot to the arm resulting in the bone damage.
The 232 rounds apparently performed per manufacturer's claims. It can be shown to not have performed per the LEO's expectations, in that multiple .223 hits failed to produce a terminal effect.
It is unknown from the presentation how many rounds of what type passed through the subject's body.
LEO shots fired: 107
Hits: 17
Bullets recoverd from body: 6; all .40 s&w, 5 of which where exanded.
As for the hit and miss rates, as well as the function of rounds as intended, the car has to be considered. For example, how many LEO rounds were seemingly on target, but stopped in the car? How many of the expanded rounds had to defeat the car's obstacles first? How many didn't? And so on... I'd like a trasnscript of the presentation, if any, that goes along with this.
The initial report is demostratively false. For example, how can the subject have been shot 17 times, 16 times with .223 rounds, and have 6 .40 s&w bullets in him? A hack job report, at best.
The .40 s&w rounds can be shown to have performed as expected. The claims of only an inch of penetration are inconsistent with the expanded rounds retreived from the body and the shot to the arm resulting in the bone damage.
The 232 rounds apparently performed per manufacturer's claims. It can be shown to not have performed per the LEO's expectations, in that multiple .223 hits failed to produce a terminal effect.
It is unknown from the presentation how many rounds of what type passed through the subject's body.
LEO shots fired: 107
Hits: 17
Bullets recoverd from body: 6; all .40 s&w, 5 of which where exanded.
As for the hit and miss rates, as well as the function of rounds as intended, the car has to be considered. For example, how many LEO rounds were seemingly on target, but stopped in the car? How many of the expanded rounds had to defeat the car's obstacles first? How many didn't? And so on... I'd like a trasnscript of the presentation, if any, that goes along with this.
No one expected to hit people at 100 yards using a handgun.
Actually, it is not clear if .30 carbine did well or poorly - There was no way to know if the targets were actually hit (and hit in a vital area) or if the round missed or passed through the jacket.
"A trace amount of marijuana in his system"...All that means is that he used cannabis sometime during the last month. Completely irrelevant and somewhat misleading info.
I don't think the "adrenaline flushing" theory has much truth to it. Seems a little far fetched. Else every pothead out there would run across a busy highway or go bungee jumping before a drug test and Abra Cadabra they would pass. Besides, what connection would marijuana have to rounds failing to penetrate? Perhaps cannabis gives people "Stoned Skin"
Another point to make: On slide six it mentions "One round struck his hip and completely shattered it", and you can see that a bone was really shattered in slide 8. But that was not a mayor event as it seems to be portrayed in the report. Notice that what they refer to as his hip is really the iliac bone, a pelvic bone which is not weight bearing. You can shatter it all you want and it will be absolutely inconsequential to the person's mobility. What many people consider the hip bone is actually a worthless target when your assailant has to go down NOW. Shooting to shatter the "hip" is useless, unless you hit the hip joint or upper femur.
Now look at slide 8 again. Notice the left hip joint. You can see the shadow of an expanded HP right on top of it. If that HP had penetrated more, then that could have damaged the hip joint (proximal femur) enough that the person would have had difficulty moving about on his legs. That would have been a good hit had penetration been adequate.
And that brings me to a third point: It seems that in practice hollow point pistol rounds suck. Whenever I learn of a failure to penetrate in a service caliber, it always involves a hollowpoint. I recall that the 9mm rounds from the Miami shootout that failed to penetrate were also hollow points, albeit of a lower tech design than those used today... what would have happened if they used simple FMJs instead? Any one else see a connection here? Ballistic gelatin tests make for neat pics, but are they a real reflection of a bullets performance in the real world? Is the holy 10-12 inches enough? Maybe in real shootouts you need that through and through ability FMJs have.
When using a pistol round, all you can count on to cause damage is penetration(temporary cavity is a non issue). So why cut down on the only wounding factor your rounds have by making them hollowpoints? Is the (possibly) enlarged wound channel worth the (certain) loss in penetration?
I don't think the "adrenaline flushing" theory has much truth to it. Seems a little far fetched. Else every pothead out there would run across a busy highway or go bungee jumping before a drug test and Abra Cadabra they would pass. Besides, what connection would marijuana have to rounds failing to penetrate? Perhaps cannabis gives people "Stoned Skin"
Another point to make: On slide six it mentions "One round struck his hip and completely shattered it", and you can see that a bone was really shattered in slide 8. But that was not a mayor event as it seems to be portrayed in the report. Notice that what they refer to as his hip is really the iliac bone, a pelvic bone which is not weight bearing. You can shatter it all you want and it will be absolutely inconsequential to the person's mobility. What many people consider the hip bone is actually a worthless target when your assailant has to go down NOW. Shooting to shatter the "hip" is useless, unless you hit the hip joint or upper femur.
Now look at slide 8 again. Notice the left hip joint. You can see the shadow of an expanded HP right on top of it. If that HP had penetrated more, then that could have damaged the hip joint (proximal femur) enough that the person would have had difficulty moving about on his legs. That would have been a good hit had penetration been adequate.
And that brings me to a third point: It seems that in practice hollow point pistol rounds suck. Whenever I learn of a failure to penetrate in a service caliber, it always involves a hollowpoint. I recall that the 9mm rounds from the Miami shootout that failed to penetrate were also hollow points, albeit of a lower tech design than those used today... what would have happened if they used simple FMJs instead? Any one else see a connection here? Ballistic gelatin tests make for neat pics, but are they a real reflection of a bullets performance in the real world? Is the holy 10-12 inches enough? Maybe in real shootouts you need that through and through ability FMJs have.
When using a pistol round, all you can count on to cause damage is penetration(temporary cavity is a non issue). So why cut down on the only wounding factor your rounds have by making them hollowpoints? Is the (possibly) enlarged wound channel worth the (certain) loss in penetration?
very very interesting and informative.
On a side note, I'm guessing based on the photos and the adhesive electrodes being still on him that he was DOA. I'm sad because he was so young and it's a shame he had to screw up his life so much so fast. The officers did what had to be done though assuming all of the information provided is factual.
The only thing that would have been more helpful in the powerpoint was if some officers had been armed with 5.56 TAP instead of .223 TAP and to see if that made a difference.
It looks though like many of the rumors about .40 SW can be put to rest though.
Does anybody know if the Speer Gold Dot used was standard loading or was it a custom (hotter) loading like the FBI uses? I've been told the .40 SW GD that the FBI uses is custom loaded to FBI specs by Speer to be more like a .40 SW +P (even though that doesn't officially exist)
On a side note, I'm guessing based on the photos and the adhesive electrodes being still on him that he was DOA.
I'm sad because he was so young and it's a shame he had to screw up his life so much so fast. The officers did what had to be done though assuming all of the information provided is factual.The only thing that would have been more helpful in the powerpoint was if some officers had been armed with 5.56 TAP instead of .223 TAP and to see if that made a difference.
It looks though like many of the rumors about .40 SW can be put to rest though.
Does anybody know if the Speer Gold Dot used was standard loading or was it a custom (hotter) loading like the FBI uses? I've been told the .40 SW GD that the FBI uses is custom loaded to FBI specs by Speer to be more like a .40 SW +P (even though that doesn't officially exist)
Blakenzky.
Good point.
As it stands, for LEO's I think they would have to take the round with controlled expansion and penetration simply to reduce the risk of damage to innocents. Even if that round is less effective in a wider range of situations.
For me at least, it's a reason to carry a mag with FMJ's.
Good point.
As it stands, for LEO's I think they would have to take the round with controlled expansion and penetration simply to reduce the risk of damage to innocents. Even if that round is less effective in a wider range of situations.
For me at least, it's a reason to carry a mag with FMJ's.
macadore
Member
Thompsons and M3s were used in Korea as well as pistols. The rumor was that dead Koreans were found with 45 ACP slugs stuck in their jackets.
I really doubt that any amount of marijuana would cause someone to be more dangerous or more capable of taking bullets and remaining in the fight. What a crazy incident though, and it seems that the 180 grain .40 is a great defense load.
Here, I've converted it for anyone that can't do the ppt thing. BTW I run archlinux so not having windows isn't an obstacle.
http://www.liquibyte.com/image/officer.pdf
http://www.liquibyte.com/image/officer.pdf
open-office opened the presentation without a problem on Debian Linux and it's free for LInux, BSD, and Windows. A little formatting issues, but still able to be read easily.
I love open source.
This presentation is making me rethink whether I want to move away from Speer Gold Dot to Federal HST or Tactical. All of my .40 SW HP ammo is Speer GD right now and it looks like it did its job just fine.
I love open source.
This presentation is making me rethink whether I want to move away from Speer Gold Dot to Federal HST or Tactical. All of my .40 SW HP ammo is Speer GD right now and it looks like it did its job just fine.
Eh I was just thinkin' of the poor windows users that probably didn't have openoffice but more than likely have acrobat. For what it's worth: though I think of pdf as proprietary, I think of powerpoint as evil and proprietary so this is a Robin Hood moment for me. I suppose I could have formatted it as dejavu and really confused the masses. 
SamG.
Member
He looked like a real nice dude!
jaholder1971
Member
Lessons learned here:
1. Much of what you hear on webblogs is Bovine Scatology and cop blogs aren't immune to this.
2. Handgun stopping power is a myth, especially if you don't hit anything vital.
3. Rifle stopping power is a myth, especially if you don't hit something vital.
4. Accurate aimed fire trumps spray and pray all day long.
1. Much of what you hear on webblogs is Bovine Scatology and cop blogs aren't immune to this.
2. Handgun stopping power is a myth, especially if you don't hit anything vital.
3. Rifle stopping power is a myth, especially if you don't hit something vital.
4. Accurate aimed fire trumps spray and pray all day long.
yesit'sloaded
Member
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2007
- Messages
- 1,662
Kinda makes you wonder if a COM shot is really what we should be training our LEOs for. A head shot probably would have ended this much faster. Then again in what little group force on force training I have done...everything goes to hell real quick.
"Is the holy 10-12 inches enough?"
It, 12 inches, is the minimum per the "holy 12-18 inch range" the FBI Test Protocal stipulates. There's even language to the effect that 12 inches is good, but 18 is better.
---
"Lessons learned here:
1. Much of what you hear on webblogs is Bovine Scatology and cop blogs aren't immune to this.
2. Handgun stopping power is a myth, especially if you don't hit anything vital.
3. Rifle stopping power is a myth, especially if you don't hit something vital.
4. Accurate aimed fire trumps spray and pray all day long."
Yep.
It, 12 inches, is the minimum per the "holy 12-18 inch range" the FBI Test Protocal stipulates. There's even language to the effect that 12 inches is good, but 18 is better.
---
"Lessons learned here:
1. Much of what you hear on webblogs is Bovine Scatology and cop blogs aren't immune to this.
2. Handgun stopping power is a myth, especially if you don't hit anything vital.
3. Rifle stopping power is a myth, especially if you don't hit something vital.
4. Accurate aimed fire trumps spray and pray all day long."
Yep.
gretmd
Member
What happens in the trauma bay and xray...
The chest xray shows bilateral pneumothoraces (collapsed lungs) and a right chest tube- something made it through the chest wall, which in a thin guy could be under an inch in thickness.
The left chest incision looks like it could have been the start of a another chest tube or a thoracotomy, perhaps a little low, but we don't see the whole thing. Trauma resuscitations do occasionally get carried beyond the point of save-ability for, ah, practice.
Right iliac bone fracture would might not have stopped this guy, but is unlikely have been "inconsequential" to mobility.
The right humeral fracture is significantly displaced, but the elbow does not appear disarticulated on this single view; we would need a lateral film to demonstrate that. The shrapnel in that area is consistent with the injury, but the guy wouldn't have much use of that arm, absent the function of the elbow. No exit wound is seen in these images, but the right upper arm does appear swollen as compared to the left.
One less bg, hopefully the police officers recovered, and the trauma residents/ER staff got some practice.
I hope the 9mm HP's I carry will do the trick, God forbid I should ever need them...
The chest xray shows bilateral pneumothoraces (collapsed lungs) and a right chest tube- something made it through the chest wall, which in a thin guy could be under an inch in thickness.
The left chest incision looks like it could have been the start of a another chest tube or a thoracotomy, perhaps a little low, but we don't see the whole thing. Trauma resuscitations do occasionally get carried beyond the point of save-ability for, ah, practice.
Right iliac bone fracture would might not have stopped this guy, but is unlikely have been "inconsequential" to mobility.
The right humeral fracture is significantly displaced, but the elbow does not appear disarticulated on this single view; we would need a lateral film to demonstrate that. The shrapnel in that area is consistent with the injury, but the guy wouldn't have much use of that arm, absent the function of the elbow. No exit wound is seen in these images, but the right upper arm does appear swollen as compared to the left.
One less bg, hopefully the police officers recovered, and the trauma residents/ER staff got some practice.
I hope the 9mm HP's I carry will do the trick, God forbid I should ever need them...
30 cal slob
Member
i'm veering somewhat off topic, but i'm both intrigued by the information and saddened by the reality of all of this.
strange things to be feeling. i wonder what the perp was thinking (or not thinking). a wasted life.
strange things to be feeling. i wonder what the perp was thinking (or not thinking). a wasted life.
Phil DeGraves
Member
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- Aug 24, 2006
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Actually, slower bullets penetrate better because they don't expand as much.
If they could only hit the body and not COM at that, 11 times in 107 tries, I doubt that a head shot would have been achievable.
If you read the whole powerpoint: The info on the blog which they put in slide 6 is inaccurate and is said to be inaccurate. They put that in the powerpoint to show what had been said and that it was not to be believed. SHEESH!
According to the rest of the PP, the .40 S&W behaved exactly as they had anticipated it would, as did the .223. The .223 did not meet the FBI criteria because it overpenetrated in gelatin without doing sufficient damage and performed similarly in this case, as they expected it would.
According to the FBI, the .40 performed as expected as well, mirroring the results obtained in the gelatin tests, but good hits were not achieved.
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