FFL Transfers on New Weapons (DSA), Wholesale

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.45&TKD

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I'm trying to buy a DSA STG58 carbine from DS Arms and I am looking for a Arizona FFL to do the transfer so that I can buy it wholesale and just pay the transfer fee.

The first place I went to, I have actually done two transfers with in the last year for $25 per transfer, but on this item they wanted the full mark up to MSRP and would not let me have the wholesale price.

Next I went to a pawn shop where I have purchased a used handgun off the shelf in the last year. He originally said that he would do it after speaking to DSA in front of me, but the next morning had a change of heart. His reasoning was that what DSA wanted him to do, was to put me down as an "agent" of this FFL and that doing that was to much of a risk for him. He said that I could buy it "through" him for a 10% markup. I would of course have to pay sales tax of 8.7% in addition to the 10% because I would be buying local as opposed to me buying directly from out of state.

I have heard of a lot of people buying DSA FALs the way that I am trying to do it; wholesale with only a transfer fee. This is the first I have heard about the need for me to be an "agent" of the FFL.

My question: Is the Pawn Shop FFL just making up the part about the need for me to be an "Agent" of the FFL to buy it wholesale with a transfer fee, so that he can charge me more buying it from him as a retail customer?

I was planning to get this rifle for about $900 total, but would be looking at about $1,100 under the new scenario, which would be pushing my budget limits.
 
why should a dealer sell it to you at his cost?

Why are you different from a retail customer?
 
Why are you different from a retail customer?
Click to expand...

Well, he is not stocking the item like a retailer would, so why should a pay a 30% markup for something I have to order.

why should a dealer sell it to you at his cost?
Click to expand...

How is this different from any other FFL transfer, like buying on Gunbroker?

I did not think of doing this on my own. From what I have read on this and other boards, this is a common practice.
 
I have bought two DSA FALs the way you have described. It is best if you use an FFL you have a good relationship with. DSA will sell to an individual at the dealer price if the dealer says its ok. My dealer charges a small transfer fee, and lets me get the dealer price.

Its really no big deal to him, because he never has to tie up money or retail space with the gun.

I can understand why a dealer might not want to let you get dealer pricing, but I would just go find someone else to do business with.
 
I have bought 2 DSA FALs this way as described.

  • Go to FFL
  • Get them to send FFL and call DSA or send letter saying it is OK for you to deal with them directily and delivery to him
  • Order rifle from DSA and pay them directly the dealer price (usually about $300 below MSRP)
  • Wait impatiently
  • Rifle shows up at dealer
  • Dealer transfers to you for small transfer fee ($20-30)
 
I wish you lived here in Iowa. I have been a FFL dealer now for 20 years and have never charged over a $20 fee for any transfer. I am happy, and my customers are happy. And guess what? They always seem to come back again and again. Imagine that.
 
Anyone know of an FFL in Arizona that would do a transfer from DSA as described for me at a reasonable price?
 
Wholesale to the public?

I'm suspicious of anybody who would want to buy a $1000 product and only wants to front $20 or $30 for my services. There's a great deal of liability involved in having an FFL as well as a tremendous investment in time I always had to spend with 'customers'. If you want the gun cheap, get your own FFL. Go to a car dealer and say, "Hey, I want you to order me a $20,000 car and I'll pay you $400 to get it here. BTW, you have to tell me how much you pay for it" See what response you get. Sure, they don't stock it, but they have to deal with you, handle shipping, do the paperwork, and incur the liability. I know DSA's prices, but the customers shouldn't. You want me to handle your transfer of your Grandfather's guns from out of state, I'm there. Might not even charge you. THAT is a transfer. You want to order a fancy, expensive black rifle from DSA that I'd sell in my store for $150 profit and pay me just enough to cover the time it takes me to process it, please take your business elsewhere. Only my brothers get those kind of deals.
 
I have a strong opinion about FFLs bending customers over when it comes to transfers of used guns or guns they can't or won't order for you. But I have to agree with Badger on this one. If the dealer can order a new gun, he should get something for his profit. If you don't like his markup, shop around. That's just normal business.
 
I agree with the points Badger Arms and DMK bring up. That said, I think the only difference here is that we're talking about are:

  • The customer is doing all the ordering work in this case
  • The customer is floating all the money in this case
  • The dealer is doing nothing different than the case of " handle your transfer of your Grandfather's guns from out of state"

Plus, it is simple economics. DSA is willing to do this. "Most" dealers are willing. If this deal is available, frankly I'm stupid not to find someone who will help me take advantage of it.
 
If I was going to balance this between the points brought up by iamkris,
DMK, and Badger, I would just have to say that the FFL should charge
more for the transfer fee --even if the customer is taking care of literally
everything other than making the NICS call and filling out the sellers portion
of the form.

The problem with the retail customer who is paying for the rifle up front is
that they see this as "10 minutes worth of work" on the FFL's part. The
FFL should explain a transfer fee in terms of a broker. Also, adding mention
of the fact that the FFL's life can be invaded w/o warrant by a fedgov
agency at any hour of any day would hopefully impress upon the customer
the gravity of responsibility the FFL has assumed on his/her behalf.

Now, Mr FFL, here's the flipside. It's the competition in an industry with
an already slim profit margin on firearms and an ever increasing share of
the market in accessories going to online/catalog sales. If the FFL down
the street or in the next town is going to charge me $20 and you're going
to charge me $50, then please impress upon me what else I'm going to get
from you as my broker as opposed to the other guy? If you're going to
impress upon me the cost of your service, show me the difference as your
valued customer.

We have one FFL in our area who will special order but then insist on full
MSRP even if you show him the SN news ad, add in 10% + shipping. The
guy will literally haggle over the $10-20 difference! Yet this same FFL will
do person to person transfers in the store for $25 (the store is located
to a state line).

If you as an FFL want to improve your business rating via your dealings with
wholesalers why not use MY MONEY to do it? Won't you get a better cut
on your prices if you have higher a volume of orders with them? Couldn't
this be a win-win over the longterm?
 
"Most" dealers are willing. If this deal is available, frankly I'm stupid not to find someone who will help me take advantage of it.
Click to expand...
I never said it was wrong to ask. It's worth a shot. :) But don't expect everyone to do you the 'favor'.

I would just have to say that the FFL should charge
more for the transfer fee
Click to expand...
That I don't agree with. A transfer fee should be a set service. There should be one price. The price should not change just because I'm transferring one gun or another.

Either I buy if from you and you make your cut on it, or I buy it from someone else and transfer it in as required by law. There's no gray area there.

Also, adding mention
of the fact that the FFL's life can be invaded w/o warrant by a fedgov
agency at any hour of any day would hopefully impress upon the customer
the gravity of responsibility the FFL has assumed on his/her behalf.
Click to expand...
That's a fact of life just by having the FFL. A transfers is part of normal business. You are not incurring any added responsibility by doing a transfer that you are avoiding by a sale.

In fact, you are incurring extra liability by the sale. Now you are responsible for a quality product. If it breaks, I expect you will stand behind it and have it replaced or repaired. That is what I'm paying you for.
 
Why should

Why should I pay a middle man a percentage for a firearm, that they do not stock, had no part in the actual sale of the item, never had to front any money for said item, and will not support the item?

Really, what are they doing to justify a percentage of the price?

A flat fee for the transfer is all they are entitled to.

Now if they had it in a stocked store, and provided helpful information, and also would back the firearm with service and support,...than yes.
 
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DMK, I'm a little confused. I basically said that a transfer is a single fee. If
the FFL wants to charge $50, I would assume it's going to be $50 whether
it's ordered from DSA or Jimbo transferring to Billybob in person in the store.
If the other FFL charges $25 for all types of transfers, then he is free as a
business owner to set that as his fee. I suspect the person who wants to
order from DSA and whoever is going to cough up the $ from Jimbo Billybob's
transaction will ALL probably see the guy charging $25, unless there's other
goods/services that they can get from the first FFL.

Maybe the $50 FFL guy is also a competent gunsmith? It would be nice to
have a business relationship with someone who can drill/tap receivers for
scopes, glass bed, etc and send a firearm to the factory if such a repair is
required. One example is that Ruger at one time would not sell complete
bolts for Mini-14s (I don't know if they still restrict that). Well, guess what
broke on mine? I took the rifle to the store I bought it from, dropped it
off and picked it up after it was completed. No additional charges --not
even shipping. I really doubt a $25 FFL would have taken care of this even
if the rifle had come through his store to begin with. It's just not cost
effective.
 
My problem with this is that DSA is selling wholesale to a non-ffl in the first place.

You want wholesale get your own dealer FFL and go through all the bull that requires (including cash)
 
You want to order a fancy, expensive black rifle from DSA that I'd sell in my store for $150 profit and pay me just enough to cover the time it takes me to process it, please take your business elsewhere.
Click to expand...

Yea, I would definitely take my business elsewhere. If you actually had one in stock though, for $150 more than wholesale, I would gladly buy it from you, and avoid the 12 week wait. But you don't. So all I am willing to pay for is the service you actually provide, which is a transfer. And when you refuse to make the transfer for me, not only do you lose that money, but also any possibility of future sales to me, and my gun budget is pretty nice. Do you really want to lose future customers willing to spend $1750 on a rifle?

Lots of gun stores go out of business because they don't build up regular customers, especially regular customers who buy expensive firearms. I am a regular customer at my local FFL, and do a lot of business with him, which I think he values a lot. Over years we have developed a good relationship. We aren't friends, its more of a business relationship, but we don't try to screw each other on trades and sales. He knows when I want something, I am going to usually go through him to get it.

I don't really understand what liability you think my FFL is taking by doing the transfer for me. I also don't think citing the possibility of the ATF investigating his books is a reasonable concern, since he is subject to that whether I do business with him or not.

Its your business, and you can do what you want, but I think your policy may cost you money in the long run.
 
I think that this is a great discussion, and I hope that no one has taken offense thus far.

As a business person with an education in economics, I think that we could take this discussion to any industry and make the same observations, whether it is retail, real estate, mortgages, autos, etc. The internet is driving down prices and producing a better informed consumer. The FFL that is doing a lot of volume on Gunbroker or Gunsamerica is using the new technologies and business models to do more business. While the traditional Gun Stores that are not adapting, are losing business. I think it is just part of having a dynamic economy. Lower margins can be offset with greater volume.
 
DMK, I'm a little confused. I basically said that a transfer is a single fee. If
the FFL wants to charge $50, I would assume it's going to be $50 whether
it's ordered from DSA or Jimbo transferring to Billybob in person in the store.
Click to expand...
My apologies. I thought you were saying charge more for the transfer because he was buying direct.
 
Sorry

to chime in like this but I disagree with the concept that DSA is doing something wrong. They are shipping all the guns they can build and are weeks behind on orders. Thus they can efficiently utilize their manufacturing resources and maximize their profit margins. They sell firearms and are astute enough to realize that making them as affordable as possible increases their market share and name recognition. They are on the right track. They sell to stocking dealers where the casual buyer can stumble on their product but they also cater to those who already know of their product and are willing to step up and buy them with cash in hand. If I were a stocking dealer (as I was prior to 1995) I would have at least one of the DSA rifles on hand and would probably sell a few at full bore pricing to some and at a discount to others depending on the customer.
 
If the dealer is not stocking or selling DSA rifles, then how is selling to a consumer at wholesale price screwing the dealer? He is not selling their products anyway.
Click to expand...
Well, someone not stocking or selling DSA rifles isn't a DSA reseller then are they?

I'm referring to the dealer that has a relationship with DSA or stocks DSA or sells DSA guns regularly.

But of course, I am not a DSA dealer or any other kind of dealer so I have no dog in that fight. That's their problem.

If I could buy one at wholesale, I certainly would.
 
While the traditional Gun Stores that are not adapting, are losing business.
Click to expand...

+1. I had one guy tell me that he'd put down his cigarette long enough to
broker a transaction and make $20.

I don't think DSA publishes wholesale firearm prices online unless the person
is logged in as a dealer. I've also seen plenty of ads in SN, online, etc where
it says "Dealers, please fax/email a copy of your FFL for your price." However,
I've been told that some of these places only knock off 10% from the posted
price. An additional cut comes in (5%) if a large order is placed above $#,000.
The dealer who orders one underfolder for Joe Shmo is probably going to get
the price for about 10% less than what Joe sees printed in SN. Dealer has to
tack shipping, insurance, etc on. Dealer has to have a street address for UPS
to send the rifle. I'm sure dealer would love to place a big order all at once
and get the extra 5%. Likewise, he can build himself up as a preferred retailer
with that wholesaler. However, that's not going to happen because Joe is an
impulse buyer and if dealer can't promise Joe an order right now, Joe is going to
the next FFL. I remember one FFL years ago who would make special orders,
but he always told people "I place ONE order per month and I just did that
last week. I'll put yours on the next one, but I need 50% from you between
now and then." His business actually did quite well doing this, but he was
also only one of three dealers for about 40 miles around.
 
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