fordman650
Member
You can get an ffl list on Guns America. It has been a while and i can't tell
you right where to look but i know they have one.
you right where to look but i know they have one.
FFL Transfers on New Weapons (DSA), Wholesale
- Thread starter .45&TKD
- Start date
- Status
Ok, so this is what I ended up doing:
The guy from the pawn shop called me back and said that after more research, he would allow me to order direct from DSA for a straight 10% fee, no tax or transfer fee charged to me. (I don't know how he is accounting for that internally).
I ordered my rifle, an STG58 Carbine 18 inch Type II, for the wholesale price of $945, which means that I will pay the FFL $94.50 for the his part, (which wasn't much). I'm sure that I could have kept shopping and found an FFL to do it for $25 and saved another $70, but my time is valuable too, and I'm happy to have my rifle on order. Also, there is some value in having a FFL with a modest mark up, for the future when I want to order a gun from a company that does not work with the public as freely as DSA does. So I think this is fair deal for me.
I appreciate everyone's input, and by all means keep commenting if there is more to be said on this topic.
(Note: DSA raised their prices in Jan. This item used to be $890. Shipping and handling will be another $25.00. And it will take 8-12 weeks to make/deliver.)
The guy from the pawn shop called me back and said that after more research, he would allow me to order direct from DSA for a straight 10% fee, no tax or transfer fee charged to me. (I don't know how he is accounting for that internally).
I ordered my rifle, an STG58 Carbine 18 inch Type II, for the wholesale price of $945, which means that I will pay the FFL $94.50 for the his part, (which wasn't much). I'm sure that I could have kept shopping and found an FFL to do it for $25 and saved another $70, but my time is valuable too, and I'm happy to have my rifle on order. Also, there is some value in having a FFL with a modest mark up, for the future when I want to order a gun from a company that does not work with the public as freely as DSA does. So I think this is fair deal for me.
I appreciate everyone's input, and by all means keep commenting if there is more to be said on this topic.
(Note: DSA raised their prices in Jan. This item used to be $890. Shipping and handling will be another $25.00. And it will take 8-12 weeks to make/deliver.)
Thin Black Line
Member
Bingo.
iamkris
Member
Good for you. Glad to hear they quoted you roughly the same lead time as they did to me. I ordered this beauty on Tuesday.
I fronted the money and did all the ordering work. My FFL will receive it in a few months and will charge me $25 for the transfer. That is about the going rate...IN A FREE MARKET ECONOMY...in this area.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=258399&highlight=fal
I fronted the money and did all the ordering work. My FFL will receive it in a few months and will charge me $25 for the transfer. That is about the going rate...IN A FREE MARKET ECONOMY...in this area.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=258399&highlight=fal
Badger Arms
Member
Let's get real. Some dealers charge outrageous rates for transfers for the purpose of discouraging customers from doing special transfers. Understand the distinction between a transfer and when you come to the dealer to do a special order. You tell me you'd like a DSA hole puncher, I'll look in the book, mark it up $20 + 10%, take the full payment, and call you when it gets here. (that's my standard rate for stocking too).
What fantasy life are these FFL dealers living that they only have to spend 20 minutes doing a transfer. Transfers involve me sending my FFL, coordinating with the 'customer', the wholesaler, and the shipper. Logging the gun in and out. Doing the 4473, the background check making my home available to the 'customer' and being available for the shipment which is 'adult signature only'. Then I have to deal with the BS session. Not that I'm not one for conversation, but I've had to cut people off before saying, "I've got to go!" after a half hour or hour of conversation the 'customer' always wants to engage in. For my day job, I get reimbursed about $36 an hour. Not all that is mine, but that's what my labor is worth to the company. So, you're paying me $20 for my 2 or 3 hours of work? That's about $80 short in my opinion.
Now, when I buy ten or fifteen firearms at a time from the wholesaler and sit at a gun show table (that I've paid for), I'm actually spending significantly less time with the customer, wholesaler, and shipper and yet the expectation is that you would pay MORE for the gun since it's stocked? How absurd is that?
Let's talk liability. You pay for the gun up front, right? I have insurance, have to pay more because I deal in firearms. Anybody tried to get insurance for your business when you sell FIREARMS!? I also have a home that I have to keep clean and 'open' for business, inspections, and scrutiny by the Federal Government. If I make a mistake on my books, I can lose my license, be sued, be jailed. Look at that outfit in Tacoma where the "DC Sniper" actually STOLE his guns from. They were liable because they had mistakes on their books. More like guilt by association.
Beyond this, there is the very concept that my time is not worth the money it's worth. I'm not working minimum wage here and that's about what you're willing to pay me for. There are kitchen table dealers out there who're willing to charge less. More power to them. Just realize that you are taking them for a ride most of the time.
Now, you've paid for the gun up front, I have the gun, and you don't pass the background check. It's happened only a handful of times for Transfers, but I got burned on the first one. Customer had a restraining order, so he says, but it was expired. I explain that it's okay, but he'd have to fight that and get back with me. He wants his money back, ALL OF IT! So, I'm stuck with a Browning 1895 that's almost impossible to sell in Alaska and somebody of questionable reputation demanding a full refund?
That settled, I made it clear to every subsequent transfer that the $20 fee and 20% of the cost of the gun were non-refundable. I explained that this was a "Liquidation fee" in case they flaked out and I was stuck with a gun that now I had to work twice as hard to sell a second time.
What fantasy life are these FFL dealers living that they only have to spend 20 minutes doing a transfer. Transfers involve me sending my FFL, coordinating with the 'customer', the wholesaler, and the shipper. Logging the gun in and out. Doing the 4473, the background check making my home available to the 'customer' and being available for the shipment which is 'adult signature only'. Then I have to deal with the BS session. Not that I'm not one for conversation, but I've had to cut people off before saying, "I've got to go!" after a half hour or hour of conversation the 'customer' always wants to engage in. For my day job, I get reimbursed about $36 an hour. Not all that is mine, but that's what my labor is worth to the company. So, you're paying me $20 for my 2 or 3 hours of work? That's about $80 short in my opinion.
Now, when I buy ten or fifteen firearms at a time from the wholesaler and sit at a gun show table (that I've paid for), I'm actually spending significantly less time with the customer, wholesaler, and shipper and yet the expectation is that you would pay MORE for the gun since it's stocked? How absurd is that?
Let's talk liability. You pay for the gun up front, right? I have insurance, have to pay more because I deal in firearms. Anybody tried to get insurance for your business when you sell FIREARMS!? I also have a home that I have to keep clean and 'open' for business, inspections, and scrutiny by the Federal Government. If I make a mistake on my books, I can lose my license, be sued, be jailed. Look at that outfit in Tacoma where the "DC Sniper" actually STOLE his guns from. They were liable because they had mistakes on their books. More like guilt by association.
Beyond this, there is the very concept that my time is not worth the money it's worth. I'm not working minimum wage here and that's about what you're willing to pay me for. There are kitchen table dealers out there who're willing to charge less. More power to them. Just realize that you are taking them for a ride most of the time.
Now, you've paid for the gun up front, I have the gun, and you don't pass the background check. It's happened only a handful of times for Transfers, but I got burned on the first one. Customer had a restraining order, so he says, but it was expired. I explain that it's okay, but he'd have to fight that and get back with me. He wants his money back, ALL OF IT! So, I'm stuck with a Browning 1895 that's almost impossible to sell in Alaska and somebody of questionable reputation demanding a full refund?
That settled, I made it clear to every subsequent transfer that the $20 fee and 20% of the cost of the gun were non-refundable. I explained that this was a "Liquidation fee" in case they flaked out and I was stuck with a gun that now I had to work twice as hard to sell a second time.
Lone_Gunman
Member
Badger, I would guess that if doing the transfer is really as unprofitable as you say it is, that no gun dealers would do. Most do though, it seems. Maybe they don't make a lot of money on a transfer, but it does build up good will with your customers. I have had dealers tell me it takes them more like 10 minutes to do what you say takes 2 or 3 hrs. Anyway, its your business, and you can run it any way you see fit. But every time you turn away a customer willing to spend $1500 on a single rifle, you are losing a very good customer in the future.
My guess is that if someone is buying a DSA rifle, they are pretty much into guns, and will be a repeat customer if you treat them right.
My guess is that if someone is buying a DSA rifle, they are pretty much into guns, and will be a repeat customer if you treat them right.
Badger Arms,
I can't tell by your post, but wouldn't you be happy with the deal I did?
$95 for a phone call, a fax, a delivery, paid direct on my credit card by me, and a 4473 for a CCW holder, (ie. no NICS check)?
3 of these a day would be an extra $8,550 a month.
I can't tell by your post, but wouldn't you be happy with the deal I did?
$95 for a phone call, a fax, a delivery, paid direct on my credit card by me, and a 4473 for a CCW holder, (ie. no NICS check)?
3 of these a day would be an extra $8,550 a month.
iamkris
Member
I feel for the points that Badger Arms is making...and in the end, he's right. There is a lot of overhead in setting up a business, including intellectual property, insurance, liability, etc.
That said, if I want to buy a book that I know I want, I personally don't go to a bookstore...Amazon is cheaper, more convenient, and almost as fast (depending on my needs) and usually more efficient of my time. I would be stupid to spend more than it is worth to me. That is MacroEconomics 101 -- prereq: Common Sense.
Detroit argued for the longest time that the Asian cars couldn't be made at the level of quality with the overhead that they had. Fast forward today and see that Detroit has changed their model to adapt and make higher quality, lower priced, more competitive cars. Competition and new ideas in business are good for the consumer.
If an "old line" gun dealer wants to survive in the internet age, he needs to make it worth my while to come in a buy from him. Extra services, friendly staff, bundled deals (gun purchase + training + extras) or other things that internet can't match.
Unfortunately, if it is a viable business model and old line businesses don't adapt, then they will no longer be in business. Arguing that the new business models suck (assuming they are valid) won't do any good. That is a free market reality.
I didn't spend $80K on a Kellogg MBA for nothin'
PS -- Badger Arms -- none of the above was directed at you. I don't know you and I'm sure you have a kick@$$ business model yourself.
That said, if I want to buy a book that I know I want, I personally don't go to a bookstore...Amazon is cheaper, more convenient, and almost as fast (depending on my needs) and usually more efficient of my time. I would be stupid to spend more than it is worth to me. That is MacroEconomics 101 -- prereq: Common Sense.
Detroit argued for the longest time that the Asian cars couldn't be made at the level of quality with the overhead that they had. Fast forward today and see that Detroit has changed their model to adapt and make higher quality, lower priced, more competitive cars. Competition and new ideas in business are good for the consumer.
If an "old line" gun dealer wants to survive in the internet age, he needs to make it worth my while to come in a buy from him. Extra services, friendly staff, bundled deals (gun purchase + training + extras) or other things that internet can't match.
Unfortunately, if it is a viable business model and old line businesses don't adapt, then they will no longer be in business. Arguing that the new business models suck (assuming they are valid) won't do any good. That is a free market reality.
I didn't spend $80K on a Kellogg MBA for nothin'
PS -- Badger Arms -- none of the above was directed at you. I don't know you and I'm sure you have a kick@$$ business model yourself.
Badger Arms
Member
10% is a reasonable fee. In fact, I think it's pretty standard among kitchen-table dealers. I charged the extra $20 because of people wanting to buy cheap guns that I'd only make $10 on. Not worth the trouble in that instance. Sounds like you got a good deal. I'm holding out for the SCAR myslef!!! (might just buy a DSA to hedge my bets against President Obama and Vice President Clinton!)
Lone: Those who say it takes 10 minutes are feeding you a line. Heck, the 4473 alone takes longer than that. Also, if you're talking about building a good relationship with your customers, that's fine and dandy if you're a shop open for business, but not if you're essentially a 'broker' with an inventory of 30-60 guns depending on the season. They're not going to come back for the impulse buy or to buy something I have in stock, they're going to do just what they just did, take me for a ride. It's business, and part of business is keeping the customers happy. I do that by ensuring that they have a good experience at honest, reasonable prices with a minimum of hassle.
Lone: Those who say it takes 10 minutes are feeding you a line. Heck, the 4473 alone takes longer than that. Also, if you're talking about building a good relationship with your customers, that's fine and dandy if you're a shop open for business, but not if you're essentially a 'broker' with an inventory of 30-60 guns depending on the season. They're not going to come back for the impulse buy or to buy something I have in stock, they're going to do just what they just did, take me for a ride. It's business, and part of business is keeping the customers happy. I do that by ensuring that they have a good experience at honest, reasonable prices with a minimum of hassle.
Lone_Gunman
Member
10 minutes for a 4473?
You have to be kidding me. I fill out my part in about 1 minute. Then I hand it to the store guy along with my drivers license and carry permit, and he takes about the same. Never timed it, but no where near 10 minutes, unless you have to do a lot with it after I leave.
I am not picking on you Badger, it just seems like the way you operate would seem to run off guys who buy high end guns. If you are buying a DSA FAL, your next purchase probably won't be a Lorcin.
You have to be kidding me. I fill out my part in about 1 minute. Then I hand it to the store guy along with my drivers license and carry permit, and he takes about the same. Never timed it, but no where near 10 minutes, unless you have to do a lot with it after I leave.
I am not picking on you Badger, it just seems like the way you operate would seem to run off guys who buy high end guns. If you are buying a DSA FAL, your next purchase probably won't be a Lorcin.
karlsgunbunker
Member
Go to
http://www.auctionarms.com/help/FFLNetwork.cfm
or
http://www.gunbroker.com/User/DealerNetwork.asp
and find a local dealer.
Pay for the gun by CC or MO to DSA.
There is bound to be a homebased dealer (like me) who will do the transfer for a reasonable fee.
http://www.auctionarms.com/help/FFLNetwork.cfm
or
http://www.gunbroker.com/User/DealerNetwork.asp
and find a local dealer.
Pay for the gun by CC or MO to DSA.
There is bound to be a homebased dealer (like me) who will do the transfer for a reasonable fee.
Texfire
Member
Minority opinion here. I went to my local dealer and asked him to order me a Stg58 Standard model from DSA. He asked for 20%(ish) down and called DSA to order the rifle. When it gets in I'll go down, fill out the paperwork and pay the remaining amount, plus tax. I'm sure that I'm paying more for it this way rather than finding a kitchen table FFL to transfer the rifle and paying DSA direct the Dealer price on the same rifle.
But here are the pluses for me. I am totally legal and aboveboard without any gray area. I am paying my state's sales tax, even though I could probably get away with not doing so since I'm buying it from another state. I'm also paying my FFL for his time and doing my part to insure that I have a friendly gun shop in my neighborhood. I have a relationship with my dealer and trust him to charge me a fair price over his dealer cost, and not gouge me since I am a consistent customer and purchase most of my firearms through him. I also frequently go down to his shop and "waste" his time chatting and perusing the stock without purchasing anything. He still has to pay for his shop when I'm not purchasing anything.
I'm not saying my way is any better than the other one, but it's the one I'm comfortable with, and for me the marginal increase in price is minimal in comparison to the cost of feeding the beast after it gets here.
Tex
But here are the pluses for me. I am totally legal and aboveboard without any gray area. I am paying my state's sales tax, even though I could probably get away with not doing so since I'm buying it from another state. I'm also paying my FFL for his time and doing my part to insure that I have a friendly gun shop in my neighborhood. I have a relationship with my dealer and trust him to charge me a fair price over his dealer cost, and not gouge me since I am a consistent customer and purchase most of my firearms through him. I also frequently go down to his shop and "waste" his time chatting and perusing the stock without purchasing anything. He still has to pay for his shop when I'm not purchasing anything.
I'm not saying my way is any better than the other one, but it's the one I'm comfortable with, and for me the marginal increase in price is minimal in comparison to the cost of feeding the beast after it gets here.
Tex
- Status
