Find the holes

[Roswell 1847]

Information on U.S. Army helicopter AH-1G tail number 68-15138
The Army purchased this helicopter 0569
Total flight hours at this point: 00000639
Date: 01/03/1970
Incident number: 70010303.KIA
Unit: 520 TC BN
This was a Combat incident. This helicopter was REPAIRED IN THEATER
This was a Recon mission for Armed Recon
While Enroute this helicopter was at Level Flight at 0800 feet and 130 knots.
South Vietnam
Count of hits was not possible because the helicopter burned or exploded.
Small Arms/Automatic Weapons; Gun launched non-explosive ballistic projectiles less than 20 mm in size. (12.7MM)
The helicopter was hit in the Cockpit
Systems damaged were: PERSONNEL
Casualties = 01 KIA . .
The helicopter Continued Flight.
The aircraft was diverted prior to accomplishing any mission objectives.
TAY NINH recovered the helicopter.
Original source(s) and document(s) from which the incident was created or updated: Survivability/Vulnerability Information Analysis Center Helicopter database. Also: CASRP, CRAFX, FM385, CALTR (Crash Facts Message. Casualty Report. )

The .50 BMG round is a Small Arms munition, and the Barrett is a Small arm by any standards because it is man portable and does not require a crew.

Any round less than 20mm in diameter is a Small Arms round by US Military useage.

Since every source on the 12.7mm Machinegun I've looked at so far credits it with dooming the use of US Helicopters in Vietnam, I strongly suspect that it accounted for far more US Helicopter losses than 7.62 hits.

Now can we cut the stawman arguments and discuss the actual subject?
The 12.7mm which is ballistically very similar to the .50 BMG round is said to have been able to reach any section of a Nam era US Chopper from any angle.

 

[siglite]

You're confused. I'm not arguing that the 50 isn't MORE effective. I consider that obvious. I'm arguing that you're ignoring the effectiveness of the 30 caliber, and generating a general spin and impression that the 50BMG's sole purpose is downing aircraft. You keep saying that specifically about the Barret. You are spinning the 50BMG as the "plane killer." And my point is "Yeah, so's grandpa's 3006." So when ban time comes, let's remember that. Because I view the 50BMG and the 3006 equal under the 2nd amendment. Equal. And the arguments you're putting together apply to grandpa's deer rifle too. So while you're spinning all this "plane killer" rhetoric about the 50, remember, every bit of that applies to the Garand, even though, yes, the 50 does it better.

You're not addressing this. You're only providing these single anecdotal instances. You've yet to disprove the Command Sergeant Major, nor the United States Air Defense Artillery School.

It's possible that we're talking past each other. Because I see your point. I fully understand that the .50BMG is BETTER at that particular task. And I'm fine with the honesty required in recognizing that. I agree with you on that point as well. But I think you're completely missing mine.

 

[Macmac]

I could be wrong, but aren't guns with side mounted sites on the slides all worth 5,000 bucks each, and more so with rinestones?

Great story, to bad ATF still can't tell one gun from another. 250,000 and the next statement is guys at walmart?

Man I dunno what these guys are taking but I'ld like some, For humor only.

I might guess some here own 42 guns and more, while more others own half that many. 42 guns is just a start, more than what I own, but then who's counting.

 

[Roswell 1847]

You keep saying that specifically about the Barret.

I've said that about the M82A2 Barrett, and its a fact. Barrett designed that bullpup variant of the M82 soley for engaging aircraft, specifically armorer Soviet Ground Attack Choppers. Read up on it, very interesting gun, and he chose the .50 BMG round because it was the best in US inventory for the job.

It's possible that we're talking past each other. Because I see your point. I fully understand that the .50BMG is BETTER at that particular task. And I'm fine with the honesty required in recognizing that. I agree with you on that point as well. But I think you're completely missing mine.

Your point if you had one was lost in your strawman arguments rebutting arguments I have not made in support of positions I do not support.

Your claim that a .30 Deer rifle is an airplane killer is something I'd expect to hear from a gun grabber.

As I've pointed out the use of rifle caliber Machineguns on combat aircraft in WW2 went downhill when US fighters that had decent armor and robust airframes proved to be extremely difficult to knock down.
In fact Thunderbolt pilots often returned to base with literally hundreds of 7.92 holes in their planes and no significant damage.
Recently I watched the reinactment of a real life incident where a damaged Thunderbolt was fired on a number of times at close range by a German Ace who used up his entire 7.92 ammunition supply (his Cannon was jammed)without causing significant damage though the Thunderbolt pilot could not even manuver his plane.

Now I've not supported any Ban on the .50, I've only tried to explain to you why .50 and 12.7mm rounds are superior aircraft killing weapons compared to any rifle caliber round.
You are the one trying to inflate the effectiveness of the .30 caliber rifle cartridges. Which have been far outclassed as anti aircraft guns for going on sixty years.

You won't help defeat any .50 Ban by diverting attention to Hunting rifle cartridges, you'll only endanger the ownership of common .30 sporting rifles.

The whole point of the tracking of illegally obtained .50 weapons and ammunition is to keep them out of Criminal and Terrorist hands.
And the .50 BMG rifles have shown up in raids and sting operations on Mob connected Criminals as well as being known to be in the hands of Al-Quida/Taliban operatives who bought them from Afghan/Pakistan sources.

As far as I'm concerned you can legally own whatever you like, its dangerous weapons being sold to violent Drug gangs that poses the problem and endangers legal ownership.

PS
U.S. Patent 1628226
According to the US Patent specifications of the Browning .50 Machinegun its primary purpose is for the "Anti-Aircraft Services" and "For use in Tanks" rather than for use against tanks so besides evidence indicating that anti-armor use was not envisioned in 1910 but anti-aircraft use was envisioned, the .50 BMG has been intended primarily for use as against aircraft with Anti-Armor and other uses secondary.

 

[siglite]

Your claim that a .30 Deer rifle is an airplane killer is something I'd expect to hear from a gun grabber.

My claim, the US Army's claim, and the Command Sergeant Major's claim.

And we're not talking past each other. You're just in denial. I suspect anti-.50 bias as the cause. As evidenced here:

You won't help defeat any .50 Ban by diverting attention to Hunting rifle cartridges, you'll only endanger the ownership of common .30 sporting rifles.

And then there's this little gem:

The whole point of the tracking of illegally obtained .50 weapons and ammunition is to keep them out of Criminal and Terrorist hands.

"Out of the hands of criminals" is the Brady banner chant. I think they hum it around campfires with drum circles. Nice to see you using it.

As far as I'm concerned you can legally own whatever you like, its dangerous weapons being sold to violent Drug gangs that poses the problem and endangers legal ownership.

Applicable to .22LR as well as 50BMG.

You're sounding more like an anti with every post Ros. In this post, you actually sound like a Brady press release.

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

Ever seen what a 12" square mechanic's rag can do to a turbine engine?

Ever seen what a small chunk of metal kicked up from a tire into the wing skin of a Concorde Airliner can do?

Ever see what a few birds(or just one the size of a duck) can do to an airplane engine, propeller, control surface or windshield?

What's the difference between one .50BMG hole in a wing compared to three .308 diameter holes? The three smaller holes total 14% more area than the one 50BMG and cost about 1/3 as much to put there, not counting the 10 to 20 fold cost of the 50BMG rifle.

It doesn't matter what size hole you put into certain jet engine parts to make it inoperable or blow its lunch.

As far as I'm concerned you can legally own whatever you like, its dangerous weapons being sold to violent Drug gangs that poses the problem and endangers legal ownership.

It doesn't matter what these guys own - or anyone owns for that matter - it's what they do with them that poses the problem.

Woody

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

So what if people in this country own 50BMG rifles! What I'd object to is our own government sending armored personnel, helicopters, vehicles, tanks, or any other implement of war against US! That's the main reason we have a right to those 50BMG rifles and any other arm out there. Governments have been known to send armored personnel, helicopters, vehicles, tanks, and other implements of war against their own people - INCLUDING US, as in New Orleans, LA.; Ruby Ridge, ID; Waco, TX; and who can forget "Poor Little Elian!"

Woody

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

siglite?
the driving force behind your sig line is showing

 

[siglite]

the driving force behind your sig line is showing

Oh, and that driving force is?

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

touch of the zealot tends to restrict ones vision while making one think he sees it all. common ailment on campus. cure comes when you leave the hallowed halls

 

[siglite]

Ah. I see, you're reduced to insults. I assumed as much, however, you lacked the stones to come out with it in your first post. But I see that you're calling me "zealot" that lacks vision. Not only that, but you follow it up with your arrogant, ignorant, and misguided presumption that I'm a young student. I assume this jab is to provide the false assumption that I lack real-world or life experience - as false and misguided as you may be.

I see you have nothing high road to offer.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

sorry didm't mean to say you lacked vision just that its focus was narrowly constrained

you're not a student? or just not a young one?

 

[Roswell 1847]

Well still more supposedly pro ownership posters that believe they are supporting their case by denying the ballistic capabilities of the cartridge in question and then posting inflamatory and paranoid claims dependent on those capabilities.

So what if people in this country own 50BMG rifles! What I'd object to is our own government sending armored personnel, helicopters, vehicles, tanks, or any other implement of war against US! That's the main reason we have a right to those 50BMG rifles and any other arm out there. Governments have been known to send armored personnel, helicopters, vehicles, tanks, and other implement of war against their own people - INCLUDING US, as in New Orleans, LA.; Ruby Ridge, ID; Waco, TX; and who can forget "Poor Little Elian!"

Woody

now this

My claim, the US Army's claim, and the Command Sergeant Major's claim.

You don't even recognize the US Military definition of Small arms as being anything that fires a projectile of less than 20mm in Diameter and you've ignored all the evidence that has proven that the .30/06, which is a round designed for use against living targets including game animals and humans, was adopted for use against aircraft because no better round and platform was available and shown to be severly lacking in capability against modern aircraft long before the end of WW2.
Your quote about Standard rifle cartridges is obscure as well since they are at the lowest end of projectiles which endanger low flying aircraft and since AP or mild steel cores are the common bullet construction in use by our enemies it has nothing to do with sporting cartridges. In Iraq the vast majority of Standard Rifle Cartridges are 7.62X54 being fired from Crew served weapons or Dragonov Sniper Rifles, since the 7.62X39 is not a Standard Rifle Cartridge, its an Assault Rifle Cartridge.

When someone hits a modern chopper with .30 or smaller the Chopper lands unharmed the vast majority of the time, because .30 doen't carry the energy to damage vital mechanical components unless a very skilled or very lucky operator hammers the same vulnerable spot with multiple hits.
Of course if half the town were out there pumping .30 into a chopper the danger factor would go up.
While as Shootdown records have shown 12.7 can reach and damage or destroy any component in an unarmored or lightly armored Helicopter when fired from any angle.
Thats why its a very good thing that our Military Helicopters even cargo and light recon are being uparmored against the 12.7 and the Jihadis are now going to the much more powerful 14.5MM.

What's the difference between one .50BMG hole in a wing compared to three .308 diameter holes?

Ever hear of self sealing fuel tanks?
The main difference is that three .30 holes might seal up in fractions of a second, one .50 hole doesn't seal up at all.
There are much more significant differences as well.
Impact generates heat energy, this is something I've seen many times when bullets penetrate metal objects. The greater the energy delivered the greater the heat generated and the greater likelyhood of ignition of fuel.

Cowboy apparently believes that posting his claim that he needs a powerful weapon with anti-aircraft and anti-armor capability because he wants to be able to whack a few National Guardsmen if he personally deems it necessary is the absolutely poorest defense of Gun Ownership I've heard yet, and one he'd have best kept to himself.

Siglite apparently believes that denying the ballistic capabilities of the .50BMG is going to demonstrate that he has the maturity and responsibility to be trusted to own one.
He also seems to believe that exagerating the capabilities of the .30/06 will somehow make people believe that the .50 BMG is not an effective weapon against aircraft.

I Don't remember a .50 Ban even being mentioned in the Thread starter. Fear of Fact is going to sink you guys at the polls sooner or later.
Learn to accept the facts and work with them instead of denying them.

 

[siglite]

Siglite apparently believes that denying the ballistic capabilities of the .50BMG is going to demonstrate that he has the maturity and responsibility to be trusted to own one.

Clearly you don't believe anyone should have the maturity and responsibility to own one.

ETA: Find a single post where I've denied the ballistic capabilities of the 50. In fact, I've stated several times quite the opposite.

Find it.

At this point, I think you're just reaching for straws.

 

[siglite]

And cassondrasdaddy, we're done here. You've resulted to ad hominem attacks. Go find someone else to insult.

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

And this one's done.