Finding an Attorney...

[410.bird.shot]

I've found there is usually an attorney serving as an officer or as a member of the board of directors at the local membership ranges. A phone call to the president of the club can get you an introduction to the lawyer, and if they don't specialize in the area, a good attorney will lead you to the right person free of charge. I know a 747 full of attorneys, and almost every one will tell you to exercise extreme caution with people who advertise heavily. Look into the state bar's online disciplinary hearings records and run web searches to help eliminate the morally impaired.

 

[Spats McGee]

I'd like to comment on several of the preceding posts, in no particular order:

1) Check disciplinary histories -- Someone pointed this out in reference to lawyers that advertise heavily. The truth of the matter is that it's probably a good idea to check the disciplinary history of any lawyer whom you want to put on retainer. Fortunately, at least some states now make their attorney disciplinary actions available over the internet. A search for your state bar association or highest state appellate court should lead you to links where such records can be found.

2) Burden of proof -- The burden of proof for the essential elements of the crime charged remains at all times with the prosecution. Where it gets "squishy" is in the fact that the shooter has to admit some of those elements in order to establish the (affirmative) defense of SD, such as: (1) I shot the bad guy; and (2) I shot the bad guy intentionally. Where SD is an affirmative defense, the burden of proving the defense lays with the defendant, though. Where SD is a "simple" defense, the burden of disproving it still sits with the prosecution. It pays to know the laws of your jurisdiction, because SD is not an affirmative defense in all jurisdictions. Frank Ettin has posted some outstanding outlines about the contours of self-defense law around here, so I'd suggest that those be dug up by anyone interested.

I would be leery of a lawyer who represents police. He could share the common police attitude that "only cops should have guns."

Or he could skulk around gun boards, going under such suspicious names like "Spats McGee."

Seriously, though, any lawyer you hire will be "doing it for the money." That's how we make our livings. Said lawyer also has an ethical responsibility to represent you competently. If the thought of having "civilians" own guns is repugnant to a lawyer, he or she shouldn't take the case. Simplest answer is to just ask the lawyer about his or her attitudes towards the private ownership of guns.

 

[Sebastian the Ibis]

Ashley,

Here is what I would recommend:

Prosecutors and public defenders get great training but are horribly underpaid. Here in Miami-Dade County Florida they start at under $40k/yr (or at least they did a couple years ago.), and they get a few more peanuts each year. As such, there are always a ton of well-trained former prosectutors/PDs who have put in a couple years at the courthouse doing constant felony trials who are trying to start up their own practice. Find an eager one of these guys.

After a self-defense shooting, you need a guy who will climb out of bed at 3am in the morning and go wherever you are. A young eager attorney just starting out will do this. Ted Wells, Brendan Sullivan or whomever the biggest hot-shot defense attorney in your area is probably will not (you said you were middle-class). Hopefully, if it is a clean shoot and you successfully **** you will not need to bring in the big gun, which can be done later. The young guy will know the ropes well enough to handle the first night. Having the young guy immediately is more important than the big guy later. (There was a SD case in FL recently where the guy got off, but be still had to risk a trial because the prosecutors could play his prior interviews with cops in the courtroom. If he had immediately gotten an attorney involved, the attorney would have stopped those interviews).

True criminal defense attorneys are used to getting crazy calls at all hours of the day or night. So if you can convince him that you have enough money (X thousands) to not waste his time, he will probably come for you. Being able to say “I work with your cousin Bob,” or something which shows you are a normal person with a job and/or a non-maxed out credit card is probably sufficient.

The best way of finding one of these people is asking your friends, neighbors, etc. Indeed, if you post your location the members of this board may be able to help out. You can also find whatever legal newspaper or blog caters to criminal defense attorneys in your area, and see who is featured in that (although most will be the hot-shots).

Stay far away from “self-defense insurance” and any pre-paid scheme. You will not get an attorney the night you need one, and you will be stuck handling the investigation yourself, which basically makes it useless.

 

[Averageman]

My Attorney is a Member of my local Private Range.
I found him shooting there, asked some questions, had him do some work for me and since he has handled some issues relating to guns on a national level.
I kinda got lucky.

 

[Jim K]

How could anyone trust a lawyer named "Spats"?

Very true that a lawyer who hates guns probably would not take a gun SD case, but one never knows. Even if the lawyer is a gun owner, he might be one of those Joe Biden types who thinks the only good guns are $100,000 English double barrels, and everything else should be banned and the owners exterminated.

Jim

 

[DavidMS]

There is self defence insurance

I know nothing of Locton, but they claim to be NRA Endorsed.

http://www.locktonrisk.com/nrains/defense.htm

 

[Sam1911]

I've been told that there's no real reason for a retainer. As hso said, having him on speed dial is sufficient.

Retainers are for specific work that is on-going, from what I understand. Not for something that may happen someday but actually is very unlikely to ever happen to you.

Maybe some of our attorney friends here can shed more light on that?

 

[Spats McGee]

How could anyone trust a lawyer named "Spats"?

An excellent question!

I've been told that there's no real reason for a retainer. As hso said, having him on speed dial is sufficient.

Retainers are for specific work that is on-going, from what I understand. Not for something that may happen someday but actually is very unlikely to ever happen to you.

Maybe some of our attorney friends here can shed more light on that?

Retainers -- To be honest, when I was in private practice (which I'm not any more), I never took a retainer. That said, my understanding is that retainers are simply a matter of contract. You can structure it in whatever manner is agreeable, subject to the ethical rules of the jurisdiction.

For example:
1) For starting a proceeding, a lawyer might get a $5,000 retainer, put that in his or her trust account. The lawyer would then "bill against the retainer," moving earned fees into his or her operating account, until such time as the retainer gets low, say $500. At that time, the client might be required to replenish the retainer.
2) I do think it's possible to get an attorney on retainer for a specified, possible future event. Something to the effect that the client puts down X dollars, and the lawyer agrees to be "on standby" should the event happen. There are some problems with this though: (a) How long is the attorney to be on standby? A year? Five? Til death do us part? (b) What exactly is the "trigger event" (no pun intended, believe it or not)? Is it that the client is involved in a shooting? Arrested? Charged? (c) Is it merely for standby? Does the client get to call and get advice or consultations? Are those billed against the retainer?

 

[BullfrogKen]

Posted elsewhere, reposted here.


I've heard that advice often - have a lawyer on retainer.

I've heard very close friends in the training industry even recommend something like the program Marty Hayes is doing.

However, the absolute best advice I ever got was from people who actually work day in, day out careers in the legal and criminal law professions.

They all said a lawyer on retainer is not necessary. Clients often engage lawyers on retainer when they have a regular, recurring need for legal work. It's also a useful tactic when an individual or corporate interest wants to ensure a particular attorney doesn't become employed by an adversary in any litigation against them.

But this is the actual advice I've always gotten from all the relevant legal minds here in my area, including my local DA - Have a defense attorney you want to use already chosen, so if you're charged with a crime you know who you want representing you. You don't need to hand over any money to do that. You really do not want to have to scramble to search through the yellow pages to pick one. Chose one who has a good reputation and understands the local area.

If you are actually arrested and immediately booked in jail - which doesn't always occur right away and the Zimmerman case is a perfect example of that - all you really need is to get out of jail . Don't answer any questions and use whoever you can find to help you in your bond hearing. The lawyer who argues your bond hearing does not have to be the one who represents you at trial. It's not unheard of to see lawyers offer to help in a bond hearing at no cost in hopes you'll give them the trial business.

My local DA specifically told us to use whoever was available to get bonded out of jail as quickly as possible. The longer you're in jail after a justified use of force event, the harder it is to resist the pressure to talk to the Detectives in an attempt try to persuade them you're really the good guy, you did nothing wrong, "please believe me and let me out of here because I want to cooperate!!!"


If you can get your chosen attorney to see you right away, great! But many times that's just not possible. He might be on vacation, working another case out of town, is prepping for his regularly scheduled colonoscopy, whatever. Or YOU might be on vacation or just otherwise away from home when you have to defend yourself. So use all your energy and phone time focusing on getting out of jail, right away. Once you're out of jail, then go meet with that attorney you know you wanted to engage.



All the things I've heard from my local legal minds make a heck of a lot more sense than the stuff I hear from trainers and on the internet about the matter. It was clear they had been through the dance a few times, and knew some of the uncommon scenarios I'd never anticipate on my own. And none of the defense attorneys said they needed any money from me right now. "I take Visa," was a common response.

 

[gamestalker]

I won't offer advice as to what you should or should not say to LE, other than to say that you need to know the laws as they pertain to your state.

What I will say, is consult with an attorney who is willing to help you understand and interpret the law as it applies, and advise you on what, and what not to say to LE during initial contact. It's much like DUI advice, be cooperative with LE to the extent legally necessary. After that point, legal counsel will be there at your side advising you.

GS

 

[ATLDave]

NOT LEGAL ADVICE

The most common reason for retainers is because lawyers who don't have retainers are extending credit. With individuals or new clients, it's risky doing $100,000 worth of work and then counting on the bill being paid. A retainer establishes that there are good funds for at least the amount of the retainer, and it is some indication of an overall willingness to pay. But a retainer at the beginning of a legal case does all that about as well as a retainer three years in advance.

Criminal cases sometimes introduce another reason for large retainers - seizure. Sometimes, a defendant's accounts will be frozen, making it difficult or impossible to pay defense counsel. This is not usually going to be an issue in a self-defense case, and more likely to be in play in drug trafficking or some white-collar crime situations.

One other (unusual) reason would be that, at some point, some VERY successful attorneys begin turning away work because they have enough money and/or don't want to work any additional hours. If you have a retainer with an attorney who later falls into this category, they may have or feel some obligation to work on your case (or would at least need to refund the retainer if they refused). But that's pretty unlikely to arise unless you happen to pick a David Boise just before he gets really well-known.

 

[JAshley73]

Gentlemen, thank you for the explanations. My understanding of a retainer was quite different and incorrect so thank you all for the better explanations.

You all have definitely given me a lot to think about. As I get closer to carrying concealed, I need to get serious with a few things and begin discussing this with my wife. Finding an attorney beforehand will definitely be one topic.

I have one more question though. It sounds like I want to seek out someone with criminal defense experience. Is it just me being naive, or does the "criminal defense" title carry a negative connotation, that reflects poorly on the client? Will the judge and/or jury recognize said "criminal defense" attorney, and assume that the defendant is automatically a criminal? Please tell me if I'm being unreasonable here - I probably am - but these are things I'd like to be more educated about before making an appointment with someone.

As always, thanks again.

 

[Sam1911]

EVERY person charged with a crime needs an attorney to represent them, and that field is "Criminal Defense." Now, you are indeed looking for a specialty skillset. Most attorneys defending folks charged with crimes are used to dealing with a simple burden of proof case where the charged person is seeking to maintain that the state can't prove they did it.

In the case of self defense, that's totally backward. You're actually making an "affirmative defense" -- saying, "YES, I did it, on purpose, and I HAD TO..." -- and proving your case that your circumstances met the state's requirements for a successful affirmative defense.

That's totally different from a standard plea of "not guilty" because you think the state can't prove its case, and not all criminal defense attorneys are experienced with it.

 

[Spats McGee]

. . . .I have one more question though. It sounds like I want to seek out someone with criminal defense experience. Is it just me being naive, or does the "criminal defense" title carry a negative connotation, that reflects poorly on the client? Will the judge and/or jury recognize said "criminal defense" attorney, and assume that the defendant is automatically a criminal? Please tell me if I'm being unreasonable here - I probably am - but these are things I'd like to be more educated about before making an appointment with someone.

Sam1911 nailed it:

EVERY person charged with a crime needs an attorney to represent them, and that field is "Criminal Defense."

It's not a matter of "defending criminals" so much as it is a matter of "practicing in the field on criminal law, on the side of the defense." Yes, the judge is likely to recognize your attorney, and the smaller the town you're in, the more likely it is. Attorneys often prefer to work in a couple of chosen fields, like criminal law, or contract law, and they take on clients who need work in those fields. As a result, they wind up appearing in front of the same judges over and over.

As for the jury, they might assume that the defendant is a criminal, but it's the lawyer's job to weed out jurors who exhibit a bias based on preconcieved notions, so let the lawyer do what you pay him to do.

Here are a couple of things to keep in mind when selecting an attorney:
1) Prosecutors and public defenders get a TON of trial experience while working on those offices. They're woefully underpaid, but they're in court constantly. They try a ton of cases, and trial skills is one of the things you're looking for. So look for someone who has either prosecuted or worked as a public defender. Young lawyers go into those fields to build trial skills, not to get rich.
2) Don't worry about which side of the fence they were on when they had the jobs listed in #1. It's not necessarily a reflection of their beliefs. Not all prosecutors are anti-gun, and not all PDs are pro-gun. In fact, most prosecutors that I know have their CHCLs. (When you spend your days telling judges that Nelson Knucklehead needs to stay in jail, Nelson's family is apt to get testy about it.)

 

[boom boom]

I belong to the ACLDN mentioned above but also due to my job as a prof. in legal education know a lot of attorneys including past students at the state bar association, public defenders, etc. and my uncle was a prominent criminal defense/trial attorney in another state (now ascended to Circuit Judge in his state).

That being said, even I am prepared to be my own legal counsel for a while as the police generally will not hold up their investigation while they wait for your lawyer to appear. You will be under tremendous pressure to talk, internally as well as externally. More or less, plan on being arrested and put into custody by yourself without legal help. Often, the first time after you are arrested that you will see a lawyer is at arraignment/ bond hearings.

Thus, I subscribe to Mas Ayoob's advice which is ,limiting your talk to the police to statements such as you want to press charges against your assailant and will sign a complaint, admit what you have to justify a self defense shooting such the assailant attacked or threatened me in such a way that I felt that I had to protect myself (or others) from serious/grave bodily harm and injury from this assailant. Point out potential witnesses and evidence at the crime scene before they depart. Then, shut up politely and wait for a lawyer before answering more questions. Resist any effort to talk about the incident more until your attorney is present.

Prior to that, become informed on the laws regarding self defense in your state whether by online sources featuring knowledgeable people (see ALCDN newsletter or Rangemaster newsletter for example), in-person training at a reputable school, and/or reading books such as In the Gravest Extreme by Ayoob, Law of Self Defense, by Branca, or Self Defense Laws of 50 states by Vilos, etc. Make sure to understand that state laws regarding self defense include not only statutory law but caselaw from judicial decisions as well.

Next, worry about how you are going to pay for all of that.

 

[JAshley73]

Gentlemen, once again, thank you all for the information. I cannot express through this keyboard how much I appreciate all the advice and help. You all have given much to think about, but I feel much better equipped to go "shopping" for lack of better terms.

Thanks again.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Most lawyers will give you a free 30 minute consultation.
if you are happy with him/her than put their number in your phone to be used as needed.
If worst comes to worst advise the police that you have an attorney and (politely) refuse to make any statements until he arrives.

 

[TonyDedo]

The overwhelming advice I've gotten from multiple sources is that IF something happens (i.e. you ever need to use your firearm), the quicker you can get your attorney involved (especially in a state hostile to gun owners), the better off you'll be. The problem is that you cannot call a good attorney out of the blue from a jail cell (or the scene of an incident) and become an instant client. You need to establish a relationship first.

Every state has a one (or several) professional organizations devoted to attorneys, usually the state bar association. They'll have a list of reputable attorneys on record with their specialty, and should be able to refer you to several who specialize in firearms law.

Get the list and set up informational appointments with several of them. They shouldn't cost you a dime, but will allow you to get to know the lawyer and ask him/her what services they provide and what THEY recommend you do. When you find one you like, find out what he or she needs you to do in order to secure their services.

I found an attorney with a good reputation that specializes in MA firearms law, and put him on retainer. I had to cough up a couple grand up front, but I now have a relationship with the guy - he knows me, he takes my calls and answers my questions, and if something happens I can call the guy anytime, day or night, and have the guy by my side in a matter of minutes.

The two grand upfront may seem like a lot, but if you think of it as an insurance policy spread out over the years, it's actually dirt cheap considering the protection you're getting.

 

[Jim K]

Whether you put down money for a retainer, or just have an understanding with a lawyer is not the point. The point is that when you are being escorted to your comfortable room at the local slammer is not the time to let your fingers walk through the yellow pages looking for a lawyer. Most honest people have no idea how to contact a criminal attorney and have no need to ever do so. But if you carry a gun, you put yourself in a situation where you could be arrested and charged with commission of a crime. And then you need a lawyer, fast. No time to call your friends, check an attorney's record, or the other steps folks advise.

And if you use that nice gun in SD, you WILL be arrested and jailed. You may have seen the Western movies where the good guy shoots seventeen bad guys and the citizens cheer and the sheriff buys drinks all around. That does NOT happen in the real world. Cops don't get to make the call and no street cop is going to let you kill or wound someone and walk away.

Another piece of garbage all too common on the internet is that if you shoot someone with your $10,000 engraved gold inlaid pistol, you don't have to obey an officer's command to drop the gun or let them take it from you. You can just calmly explain the value of the gun and they will let you put it back in your holster. Sure. If a cop tells you to drop the gun, you have two choices - do as he or she says, or die.

Jim

 

[bainter1212]

Tagged for reference

 

[TonyDedo]

I just remembered that my local gun shop has a list of attorneys who specialize in firearms law listed on their website. My lawyer is listed there. Your LGS may be a good resource for finding a lawyer, as well as a local gun forum (if one exists), instructors, ranges and clubs.

 

[Sebastian the Ibis]

my local gun shop has a list of attorneys who specialize in firearms law listed on their website

There really are not that many true firearms lawyers out there (certainly not enough for every LGS to have a couple). And at the end of the day you don't really want a guy who knows the ITAR regs, or can converse with Alan Gura about the constitutional implications of Heller and McDonald. What you want is an experienced criminal defense attorney whose name is on the visitor list at the local jail, and knows that Judge XYZ will have bond court the following day. If most of his experience is with knife/bat/brick or even white powder crimes it does not really matter the first night. He is just there to shut you up and get you out. Someone else can handle your 2nd Amendment appeal, which is years down the road.

Anyone who was a former prosecutor or public defender likely fits the bill, anyone who specializes in Firearms, Personal Injury, Bankruptcy, Foreclosure Defense and Divorce probably knows squat about any of them.

 

[ralphwolf]

Talk to a cop.

The local Police Union has an attorney or two who ALL know what (and who) they need to know to deal with a gun related issue.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by TonyDedo: Every state has a one (or several) professional organizations devoted to attorneys, usually the state bar association. They'll have a list of reputable attorneys on record with their specialty, and should be able to refer you to several who specialize in firearms law.

Get the list and set up informational appointments with several of them.

If you think you may need someone who is knowledgeable of the field of "firearms law", that's a good idea.

But unless you expect to have problems regarding the sale or transfer of firearms, constructive possession, permits to carry, carry in prohibited areas, firearms trusts, and so on, that's probably not what you want.

For the initial call, what you need is any good criminal defense attorney who practices in the local jurisdiction. He or she will simply try to get you into comfortable circumstances and advise against self incrimination.

To represent you during later stages, you need a criminal defense attorney who is experienced in the area of the defense of justification in use of force law.